Candace Rucker
“Whenever I thought of being Black in America, it made me really, really angry, and I didn’t understand why until I realized that a lot of the history that I had learned was of our suffering and of our hardships and not really of our successes”
Check out some of the books she’s reading further below
This week, Candace Rucker (she/her) challenges the thought that we are only one type of ally, advocate, or activist— instead, we can be fluid by going in and out of feelings and actions. You will learn: 1. How it feels to be marginalized and misunderstood due to mixed race and queer identity 2. Why she historically got really, really angry when thinking about being Black in America 3. Why she's such a fan of intersectionality and who she'd love to meet
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🎙️ Connect with Candace:
💻 Sources and resources:
The intersectionality wars | Vox.com piece about how and why Kimberlé Crenshaw coined intersectionality
Stan Lee: A Life (Centennial) - Bob Batchelor | Bookshop.org
Journal of a Black Queer Nurse - Britney Daniels | Bookshop.org
Black Friend: Essays - Ziwe | Bookshop.org
Black AF History: The Un-Whitewashed Story of America - Michael Harriot | Bookshop.org
(Disclaimer: Gender Sexuality Info, LLC may receive a small commission from you purchasing from the Bookshop.org links, which helps to provide free educational services like this podcast)
Full Transcript
[00:00:00] Charlie Ocean: Well, hello there. I'm Charlie Ocean, and my pronouns are they/them. Welcome to Allyship is a Verb, a podcast for people practicing allyship for the LGBTQ+ community and beyond!
[00:00:25] Candace Rucker: Hello, my name is Candace Rucker. My pronouns are she/her.
[00:00:30] Charlie Ocean: Candace is a badass, my words, (laughs) living in San Francisco, California. She's a DEI program manager with a background in PR. We met randomly on LinkedIn, because I've been expanding my network, and she said yes to my connection request.
She was so kind and sweet in our messages that I asked her if she'd be up for a call the following week, and then it was history. (laughs) So we've literally known each other for a little over two months at this point. She truly is a sweetheart and I'm thrilled you get to meet her now too.
Before we dive into the self-reflection questions, shout out to Ed. (voice schoes) Thank you so much for supporting the Indiegogo campaign. I love you.
Also, I have an exciting announcement to make.
(old timey celebratory music)
[00:01:37] Charlie Ocean: We won an award!
(energetic electronic music for celebratory dance)
[00:01:47] Charlie Ocean: This was thanks to the Sonic Bloom Awards. We were nominated for both the Rainbow Mic and People's Choice. Thank you to everyone who voted for People's Choice, by the way, really appreciate that. And we won the Rainbow Mic. It's really exciting.
And this is a group effort, so I really just want to take a moment to thank Molly, the audio engineer, and Veronica, the transcriptionist, and every guest who's been on, every person who's helped to share the show, all of this has helped us to come to this moment. So, thank you, and I'm very happy to share this win with everyone.
Okay, here are the first three self-reflection questions to think about during the episode and make sure to stick around after the conversation for three more.
1. What do I think queer politics are?
2. Where I live, is there a political party affiliation that aligns with my values and beliefs?
3. What do I think of when I hear Black History Month?
And now, our conversation.
(laughs) I think I want us to start a podcast that's called "A Very Long Story Short." In each episode, we're just trying to make one long story short, and then there's like a panel of judges at the end that rate us on how well we do.
[00:03:25] Candace Rucker: Yes. (Charlie laughs) Honestly -
[00:03:26] Charlie Ocean: I'd like that.
[00:03:26] Candace Rucker: I would lose every time, but I would have so much fun. (both laugh)
[00:03:30] Charlie Ocean: Me too. Cause then like, I never even finished the story. Cause I've taken us on three side quests that we probably didn't need, but of course we did cause I'm neurodivergent. (Candace laughs) Yeah.
[00:03:40] Candace Rucker: I love this.
[00:03:41] Charlie Ocean: You are Black, queer, a woman, still uncovering neurodivergence, plus anxiety- and depression-riddled - your words. What, (laughs) which relatable, (laughs) what do those, what do those intersections mean to you?
[00:04:01] Candace Rucker: You know, for a long time I'd probably say that when I first started uncovering all this, I was like, "Oh, like, I'm so different and I don't like that because I can never fit in, in one particular space." But now, growing into my adulthood and really understanding those things, I'm like, "This makes me really interesting. I'm such an interesting person, even if I don't say a word."
But not in like a, I'm the most interesting person in the world type of way. It's more (laughs) you know, like, I am happy with who I am, and I'm just, I'm happy with me. I don't really care if anybody else likes that or not.
[00:04:41] Charlie Ocean: So, I love that. And, because my medicine's still kicking in, so ADHD is unfiltered. (laughs) It is raw and live at the time of this recording.
So, you immediately made me think of the meme of like, the most interesting man (Candace laughs) in the world.
[00:04:58] Candace Rucker: Yes.
[00:04:58] Charlie Ocean: And he's like, selling some kind of beer or whatever. If you were the most interesting woman in the world, what product would you sling? What would be your thing?
[00:05:09] Candace Rucker: That is so tough. That is such a tough question to answer. (laughs)
[00:05:14] Charlie Ocean: Blame my ADHD, I'm sorry. (laughs)
[00:05:15] Candace Rucker: No, no, I just - because I'm thinking like, for me, I feel like it would be more of an idea. Like I would want to - maybe that's not true. That's not true. (both laugh)
You probably can't see it, there's a book down here, Stan Lee. (Charlie laughs) I love the Marvel Universe so, so much, and if I could just be the person who's behind it, like, I would love to do the PR for it, the marketing, advertising, I would be there, and I'd be like, "Look how amazing this is. Do you understand the complexities of what Stan Lee was doing in his time to make these comics? Now, we get to have these movies of really, like, showing representation in all forms."
You know? That's me. That's what I would sell. (laughs)
[00:05:55] Charlie Ocean: So, we stan Stan Lee is what you're saying?
[00:05:57] Candace Rucker: We do. We do. (both laugh)
[00:05:59] Charlie Ocean: The interview's already over, I'm sorry, (both laugh) I'm just like, I should have taken my medicine much sooner. I love that. All right.
Well, Candace, take us back to the moment you acknowledged your queerness. There were signs throughout your childhood that, direct quote, "Whoop, went over my head." So what were those signs that suddenly clicked for you?
[00:06:23] Candace Rucker: Yeah, I'll try to make a very long story short, but my brother is also getting - he's engaged and he's getting married in May of this year in Hawaii. His fiancee is Hawaiian and Filipino. They requested that we wear like a Hawaiian print garment to their ceremony and my mom was telling me about the time when me and my brother were little kids, I think I was like seven at the time, and how we all wanted to do like, you know, that stereotypical matching Hawaiian print dresses and shirts and whatnot when you go to Hawaii.
My mom got a dress, obviously, and then she was like, "You need to wear a dress." I'm like, "I don't want to wear a dress. I want to wear what Pop and Chris are wearing." Pop is my dad, Chris is my brother. And then she's like, "No, you're a girl, you have to wear a dress." I'm like, "I don't want to wear a dress. I want to wear shorts and a buttoned down shirt. (laughs) Like, that's what I want to do."
And I know that that's not like a signifier of like, "Hmm, maybe, maybe you're queer." but to me, I think at the time it was just like a comfortability issue. Even like, I just, growing up, loved to wear my brother's basketball shorts all the time. Like, I just wanted breathability in my clothing. And I know a lot of people looked at me and were like, "Candace, are you a little fruity?" (laughs) I was like, "No, how could I ever? What are you talking about?"
[00:07:39] Charlie Ocean: And now you're like, "I'm a lot fruity, thank you."
[00:07:40] Candace Rucker: Yes. I was like, "Oh, wow."
[00:07:41] Charlie Ocean: "Thank you for seeing me."
[00:07:41] Candace Rucker: "All of you were right." That's amazing. (both laugh) It really clicked for me in the era of TikTok, during the pandemic, when all we had to do was look at TikTok and that was it, you know, there was nothing else. And I would be watching these videos and I would get so many targeted videos of like, "Oh, you're either a very, very good ally, or you're (laughs) queer."
And I was like, "I'm a really good ally. I know I'm a good ally. I've been a great ally." But then the video started getting a little more tailored - that was like, it cut out the ally part and was like, "Honey, you're queer." (laughs) And I was like, "Oh, okay."
[00:08:17] Charlie Ocean: There's been a few people at least on the podcast now that had the ally to queer pipeline.
[00:08:22] Candace Rucker: Yep.
[00:08:22] Charlie Ocean: So welcome.
[00:08:23] Candace Rucker: Thank you.
[00:08:24] Charlie Ocean: Happy to have you. Yeah. (both laugh)
[00:08:26] Candace Rucker: Yeah. And then coming off of that and really understanding my queerness and trying to figure out who I am and having the imposter syndrome of being queer in spaces where there was like very queer people and I was like, "Am I queer? Should I be here? Am I queer enough?" like, I don't know. And then I made a group of -
[00:08:42] Charlie Ocean: Which means you're queer. (both laugh)
[00:08:43] Candace Rucker: Yes. I learned that. And then the group of friends that I had made, who are all queer, it was really great. They're young, they're very young, I will say that. They are Gen Z and I - they terrify me sometimes. (laughs) But overall, they really helped me feel comfortable with who I am, and they always said things like, "Look, like, there's no signifiers of you being queer, like, if you feel you're queer, that's it; end of story."
And I was like, "But no, I have to present a certain way, and I have to talk a certain way, and I have to like, understand the historical significance of certain things." They were like, "No you don't! If you're queer, you're queer!" And I was like, "Oh, okay, cool!" (laughs)
Three years ago, almost four years ago, because I forget that it's 2024 and there was a pandemic that happened. During that, the end of 2020, was when I was like, "I think I might be queer," and I had told my partner this, and he was like, "I mean, I don't see it, but okay." And I was like, "Yeah, maybe you're right." And then I was on the phone with my mom, we had like hours-long discussions and she was like, "I mean, you might be, but who knows, you know, whatever."
I was just like really questioning it, really didn't understand how, if I could tell myself, like, did I need some type of expert in queerology to tell me that I'm queer, (laughs) you know? And then a year after that, I really settled into, you know what, "No, I know that I fancy. Everyone, and that's okay. There's nothing wrong with it."
And I never thought there was anything wrong with it, I really just did not want to be an imposter. I didn't want to capitalize on a space where so many others have done so many, you know, beautiful and hard things before me. (laughs) And then, a year ago I was like, "Yeah, I am queer and I am so ready to talk about it." (both laugh)
And I kind of made my Instagram debut (laughs) of I'm publicly queer, this is me now, I've always been this way, but I'm sharing it with the rest of the world now. So there you go.
It was definitely a learning curve for some people in my life, (laughs) but I've never felt wronged or that it was just bad or everybody is just very curious, which to be honest, I appreciate. I appreciate their curiosity.
[00:11:07] Charlie Ocean: So it sounds like for the most part, it's been a positive experience for you.
[00:11:12] Candace Rucker: I would say so. I think the hardest part was just convincing myself, "Hey, bitch. Stop pretending. You're fucking queer, okay?" (both laugh)
[00:11:19] Charlie Ocean: I feel the love that you have for yourself radiating from here, yes. (laughs)
You've been experiencing déjà vu of sorts, a feeling caught between different communities. Those are my words, not yours; that's how I've interpreted what you've shared with me. You said, and direct quote, "I'm exploring the queer scene where I live and figuring out what that looks like. It's a lot like growing up mixed. I'm not white enough for white people, not Black enough for the Black people, not queer enough for the queer people."
So can you elaborate on the challenges you face navigating these intersections and maybe if you feel comfortable share a moment that epitomizes the struggle?
[00:12:05] Candace Rucker: Yeah, that is so eloquently put and I appreciate that.
Growing up, it was, as you said, it was really difficult for me to just feel like I fit in anywhere because I was mixed, because I was smart when I wasn't stereotypically supposed to be, right. I was the only - I was the only Black presenting person in any of my AP, honors, or IB classes, right. So people were all like, "Oh, Candace is special. Candace is special." Because I'm like, "I'm not special. I'm the same as these other white people in this room." Like, don't - no, (laughs) I don't need to hear that, you know?
And now, being queer, where I am, I've seen a lot of things (laughs) where people are like, "Oh, well this is what stereotypical queer looks like." And that's typically the very Eurocentric vision of like, "Oh, you're either butch or you're not, or you're a butch or you're femme or masc, or -" you know, you have to be one of those things.
You can't be fluid in that. It has to be one bucket, right? And I'm like, but I'm not one of those buckets. I sometimes like to dress more masc, sometimes I like to dress more femme. It feels like a bit of that mixed-ish-ness of my race and ethnicity now coming into my queer life.
I went out for my first sapphic night, which I was so thrilled about because I was like, "Mm, yay, I'm a gay man." (both laugh)
[00:13:27] Charlie Ocean: There's the whiteness coming through. (both laugh)
[00:13:30] Candace Rucker: Yes. So I went to a Sapphic night where I live, with a group. And it was funny because at the time, which I didn't know then but I know now, is that they were like, "Oh, like, we thought you were just so devoted to your partner because you never talked about women or never said anything about women," and at the end of the night and I was just like, "Oh my god, that woman was so hot and I would take her home immediately." And they were like, "Oh, oh, (both laugh) this isn't as straight cut as I thought it was." I'm like, "No, it's not. I'm full of surprises."
But we were dancing in the club, and it was such a great time, and I had a wonderful time, and we walked out and I had overheard somebody say that that was a fun event, but the music was very straight presenting. It got stuck with me, but I didn't really know why, until I started to think about it. And then I was like, "Wait, why are we trying to put an orientation on music?" That doesn't exist. It's the same argument that we're also saying we should not gender items or things, like makeup, or dresses, or heels, or baggy pants, or sneakers, like that has no gender tied to it, so music should not be oriented.
And what they presumed as "straight music" was 90s R&B, which I'm like, I grew up on this. Like, that's my, that's my whole thing. And I realized, even more so thinking about it, the reason why it stuck with me was because it felt like, because I'm queer, and because I listen to 90s R&B music, it felt like, I'm not queer enough to listen to all the queer - whatever queer music (laughs) that means.
And so it just made me think, "Am I being invalidated?" Because my experience of being queer and what that looks like is not what some people are used to, right. Just because that's not what your mind thinks is queer music, doesn't mean that it's not queer music, and having to constantly educate folks on the nuances of being mixed in so many different ways can get tiring, but it's a job that I'm willing to have, so (laughs) keep that in mind.
In music and even beyond that, it's so I know that this has always been oversaid, but it's true, right. It's like, the people who are oppressed and marginalized the most have the most heart and will keep fighting. Unfortunately, that is the case. But also, fortunately, that means that I can be here and be me and be accepted.
[00:16:08] Charlie Ocean: Yes. Yeah. So thank you to the 90s and your music. (both laugh) It gets me through a lot of rough times.
I know that you said that you're happy to rise to the occasion of doing the work of educating people and everything, but how does it feel to constantly have to justify your presence and also challenge preconceived notions? And furthermore, how do you care for yourself in order to work through those moments, especially the days where it's harder than others?
[00:16:39] Candace Rucker: Yeah, I don't think I had that answer until quite recently, to be honest. I think a lot of my upbringing and what I learned about what it is to be Black in America, especially, was anger. I was really, really angry and I just didn't understand why people didn't grasp basic concepts of like, "Hey, did you know that racism still exists in America?" And they're like, "What- no, how could it?" (laughs) You know.
[00:17:09] Charlie Ocean: (sarcastic PSA set to presidential music) Remember, remember, thanks to 2008 November, racism no longer exists, thanks to the election of Obama. (record scratch sound) Uh, yeah, it does.
[00:17:20] Candace Rucker: But coming at it from a place of genuine curiosity helps a lot. And literally two days ago, I learned that a lot of the times when I was trying to educate the people closest to me, I would get really angry and they were like, "I don't understand what I did wrong. Why are you getting mad at me?" Until it hit me and I was like, "I'm actually not mad at you. I'm taking it out on you - that's a me thing, I gotta work through that."
But you know, I'm mad at the systems. I'm mad that it has taken this long to dismantle these systems of oppression that we live with. So coming at it from a place of like, "Hey, I'm not mad at you, I might get angry in this discussion, but that's not at you, it's more that I'm just mad that-" hell, sometimes I don't even know all the facts, you know. And I'm mad that I don't know that, like, why don't I know that? (laughs)
But, asking questions of like, how would you feel if I told you that I experienced sexism on public transportation the other day and people are like, "Oh, like, what, how, why, what, what happened? Like, how did that happen?" And I would explain the scenario and even sometimes people be like, "Well, are you really sure that that was sexism that you're experiencing?"
And I'm like, "I understand where you're coming from and I appreciate your trust in me enough to ask that question, being vulnerable like that. However, it is not up to you to determine when I feel that discriminatory practice was against me, right. That is not up to you to determine. All I need you to do is listen, learn, and do better."
Most of the time that goes over well. (both laugh)
[00:18:55] Charlie Ocean: Yeah. To your point, I get too emotionally charged with those who are closest to me. And especially if like, we don't have the best relationship, but they're like blood related family - so like my uncle, I feel like I'll never get through to him. Someone else is going to have to explain my pronouns (both laugh) because I've given up. So I'll leave that at that.
But also, I think, like you said, for me, I've realized it comes from a place of, "You're not seeing me." And sometimes it feels like an active invalidation of my feelings or my experience, and that's where I start getting angry, and then I have to like, walk away or whatever the case is, because, yeah, I need to cool off. But yeah, those moments I can be quick to being charged emotionally, and I know it's not helpful to the situation.
But to your point also, it's important for me to be able to acknowledge those feelings and feel them in a way that feels safe and process them in a way that feels safe, because, I don't know, 20 million therapist friends that I have will tell us, I don't know, it's a healthy emotion or feeling and it gives us information. It's telling us something. And I'm like, okay, well, I don't give a fuck about that right now because I'm angry, (laughs) so come at me later with that mess when I'm ready to actually hear it. I'm too angry. Fuck off.
[00:20:11] Candace Rucker: Yeah.
[00:20:12] Charlie Ocean: Thank you. Kindly. Yeah.
[00:20:13] Candace Rucker: I mean, that's very valid. Like I always tell people, "feel your feelings," but also, you know, to a certain extent. Like, (laughs) you can't just be angry 24/7/365. (Charlie laughs) Like, that's a bit much. Maybe that's some internal work we need to do. (laughs)
[00:20:26] Charlie Ocean: Yes. Yes. I know that you value representation because we talked about bicons and things like that previously. How do you feel about the current state of representation for mixed and queer individuals in media? And what are some changes you would like to see in the industry?
[00:20:45] Candace Rucker: Yeah, this is hard. (laughs) This is hard. The two voices in my head, right? There's one voice that's like, "Oh, we have some representation, so that should be enough." And then the other voice in my head is like, "Why are we stopping at some? We should have many; we should have all." But at the same time, if we have all, we can't have other types of representation. So I can't go that far. (laughs)
But, it's nice to see that we're slowly making that progress towards - it's even bigger than just like cinema or media. It's in authorship, people who are writers. Cause I mean, I've been on a book kick lately - I'm going to just preface with that - (laughs) so like I have been only trying to read books from Black women, authors, Black queer authors, yada, yada, yada. So I'm like, I need to find more books of these authors, you know. And it just helps me feel so seen.
So this book back here, "Journal of a Black Queer Nurse." I'm not a nurse. I've never worked in healthcare. I don't understand it, quite frankly. (laughs) It's one of the systems -
[00:21:48] Charlie Ocean: No one does.
[00:21:48] Candace Rucker: I would love to dismantle, to be honest. (both laugh)
[00:21:51] Charlie Ocean: Yes.
[00:21:52] Candace Rucker: But the author Brittany Daniels, she had so many encounters working as a nurse all over the country, I would read it and be like, "same girl," and like the next line be like, "same girl," you know. It's like, you don't have to come from the exact type of scenario that somebody else is working in or experiencing to be able to sympathize and empathize, but having that representation of a Black queer person working in a world where "there's no racism anymore," in quotation marks, (laughs) is helpful for me, it makes me feel more seen, right, it makes me feel heard and be able to do my work better.
[00:22:27] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, the whole racism thing, and I know so many people will be like, "But we had Obama." I'm like, "Don't even start with that." And then what happened after that, and during, even -
[00:22:36] Candace Rucker: Yeah.
[00:22:36] Charlie Ocean: Don't even, don't even come at me with that. The anger (whispers) - I'm shoving it down. Just kidding, but also not.
[00:22:43] Candace Rucker: No, I know it is funny to me though sometimes when people are like, "It's okay because I have a Black friend." (laughs) I'm like, "what does that mean? Are you saying that I am your Black friend? Like we are the same people? Because that's not how that works." (laughs)
[00:22:55] Charlie Ocean: Well, you're helping them with their bingo card massively if you're having like multiple identities now. So the fact that you're Black and queer, you're doing them a solid.
[00:23:03] Candace Rucker: I supposedly. (laughs)
[00:23:06] Charlie Ocean: Having to explain to people your proximity to someone doesn't mean you're practicing allyship in the right ways.
[00:23:14] Candace Rucker: Right.
[00:23:14] Charlie Ocean: Don't play the, "I have a Black friend," "I have a Jewish friend," whatever, don't -
[00:23:20] Candace Rucker: it doesn't help anybody. It really, I mean, cause it's like, that's great that you're expanding your group of friendship I suppose, but are you learning anything? Cause what you're telling me is you're just using that person as a token. You haven't actually learned anything from that person. So, maybe -
[00:23:35] Charlie Ocean: Right.
[00:23:35] Candace Rucker: Maybe we do the work. (laughs)
[00:23:39] Charlie Ocean: Yeah. Which is why after this conversation, I'm going to be like, "My Black and queer friend, Candace said -" and then, you know, use that card. (both laugh)
[00:23:48] Candace Rucker: I'll allow it this one time. (laughs)
[00:23:50] Charlie Ocean: I will use that free pass very carefully. (Candace laughs) So given that the media and everything that we just talked about, is there anyone you specifically look to, or admire, that is part of the representation you want to see?
[00:24:08] Candace Rucker: Yeah, I mean, there is, (laughs) there is something I've been trying to take to heart, which is: admire and put on a pedestal the words that people say, and not exactly the people. Because everybody makes mistakes, right., I'm not gonna sit here and be like, "I'm the most perfect Black, queer woman in America." I'm not. I've done some stupid things, you know.
But, with that said, if I were to really love the words that somebody chooses to use and how they express their strifes, and their successes, and their identity, I would probably say Janelle Monae is top of that list.
[00:24:45] Charlie Ocean: Hmm.
[00:24:46] Candace Rucker: Like, (both laugh) they are just, like, you can't beat, you know. They're a wonderful actress. Everything that they do is intentional, and very thoughtful, and meaningful. And it feels nice to have that balance of both being able to see the anger, and also the eloquence.
[00:25:06] Charlie Ocean: At the time of recording this, yesterday was the Grammys. I don't watch that stuff. I've stopped watching that stuff ages ago, yeah. However, Janelle Monae, there's been this quote going around where they said, "There is no pleasure without safety. We need to feel safe systemically-" (laughs) if I can talk, "and legislation wise. Without that safety, there is no joy."
And I agree with that wholeheartedly. And I think it's another great way of saying that expecting us to have that visibility without any sort of safety is just like irresponsible. So when people are like, "Well, just come out, it's a different time." Well, it's not though, because now here in 2024, I think the last number I just saw were - again, barely in February - the last number I just saw is 388 proposed bills for the year that are anti-LGBTQ+ or anti-trans specifically.
So when we have things like Trans Day of Visibility or whatever, things like that, just because we're being visible doesn't mean it also comes with safety.
[00:26:10] Candace Rucker: Exactly.
[00:26:10] Charlie Ocean: So anyway, I don't know. I literally just saw that this morning, so when you said Janelle Monáe, I was like, "Hold on, let me whip out my phone." (laughs) I just screenshot something.
[00:26:19] Candace Rucker: It's so true that it's like, safety is a privilege that a lot of people don't realize they have. And I feel like whenever they say things like, "Oh, well, it's safe for you to do X, Y, Z thing now because we're in a different time." That's such a privilege that they don't even realize they can say. It could even be somebody from a marginalized group where it's like, "Oh, well, you know, it's safe." I could even say, "It's safer for me to walk around in different parts of the country that might not be as accepting of Black folk because I'm fair skinned." Right, that is my privilege. I will argue, I will slightly argue Janelle's quote (laughs)
[00:26:56] Charlie Ocean: Okay, let's do it.
[00:26:58] Candace Rucker: Only because, yes, there is no joy if there's no safety, but at the same time, the only way we are able to continue to go to strive and innovate and be better people is with joy, right. Like, you have to find that joy. And I'm not gonna sit here and be like, it's easy, you could just look under a rock, look, there's some joy. Like, no, it's really hard, but (Charlie laughs) intentionally trying to find it is what helps us keep going.
[00:27:23] Charlie Ocean: For me, Especially the first piece of there is no pleasure without safety, and that without safety there is no joy, jumping to the last part of it. It reminds me of your sweatshirt that you're wearing that says "queers take care of each other." I think part of it is having access to the language and community, which is why every time people are like, "Why you gotta rub that in everyone's faces?"
And it's like, cause I didn't see it until what felt like really late for me. And then I'm running around in the world not having the best. idea of who I am and how I want to show up in the world because I wasn't seeing the representation. When the closest thing I had were people who were like tomboys or something. Again, 90s, very gay, very queer. Cause then you take shows like "Xena" and it's like -
[00:28:14] Candace Rucker: Right.
[00:28:14] Charlie Ocean: How did I not see how gay that show was? (both laugh)
[00:28:19] Candace Rucker: For real.
[00:28:20] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, but for me, like what Janelle says just points me back to community and that that's what can also help us in terms of that liberation or the safety or the joy or the pleasure. I'm just grateful to have that. And I think, again, that's another privilege because I know not everyone has access to that, because they're not being taught fact-based, inclusive, sex ed or other courses. They're still needing to see that possibility model or to get access to that language or community.
[00:28:53] Candace Rucker: I love everything you said. I fully agree that one of the biggest ways to find joy is through community. Yes, it is a privilege, but thankfully with social media and the internet, we can branch out to different communities now.
[00:29:07] Charlie Ocean: Yes. I know that you're deeply involved in exploring intersectional Black queer history because we nerded out about it (Candace laughs) quite a bit in our last conversation previous to this, meaning before we talked on the podcast at all. I feel like I keep alluding that there was a previous episode; (Candace laughs) this is the first episode.
[00:29:26] Candace Rucker: Yes.
[00:29:27] Charlie Ocean: I'm curious, and I feel like maybe you've already answered this, but what sparked your interest in this intersection and how has it influenced your perspective on identity and activism?
[00:29:39] Candace Rucker: Ooh. (laughs) What sparked my interest? I think just realizing that, that I'm not just one thing, I am multiple things. Having that hodgepodge of what I like to call coolness in me. (laughs) Really made me start to get curious about like, "Okay, well, who else was like me? Have there been people like me? What are the other intersections that are at play?" Because I don't even know - have you heard the story of how the term intersectionality was coined?
[00:30:08] Charlie Ocean: Professor Kimberly Crenshaw coined the term over 30 years ago in 1989 in an academic paper. It was to describe how race, class, gender, and other individual characteristics intersect with one another and overlap. I've included a link to an article so you can learn more about the origins.
[00:30:31] Candace Rucker: That, I love that story because Kimberly Crenshaw, if I could ever meet her, I would die. I would literally die right then and there. (laughs)
[00:30:37] Charlie Ocean: I hope you have people to bring you back within the vicinity so we don't lose you.
[00:30:44] Candace Rucker: Yes. (laughs)
[00:30:44] Charlie Ocean: But I understand. (laughs)
[00:30:45] Candace Rucker: I really thank her for coining that term and really exploring what it means and helping us all kind of understand that it kind of digs to another layer of how a lot of these things are just social constructs, constructs designed to keep certain people down, right. It's like if we do have intersectionality, then none of that matters.
[00:31:04] Charlie Ocean: Shout out to yet another Black woman that we can thank for giving us something beautiful.
[00:31:11] Candace Rucker: Yes. (laughs)
[00:31:13] Charlie Ocean: I feel like behind almost everything is like an incredible Black woman, who's also probably queer, that's doing the work, so.
[00:31:22] Candace Rucker: Yeah.
[00:31:22] Charlie Ocean: Love it. But also hate that, that that's like, I don't know, I want to say this unfair burden that's been placed on you without - the emotional labor, right. The emotional labor and then also going without the credit and acknowledgement. But we have a lot to thank Black women for and Black queer women.
[00:31:39] Candace Rucker: Yeah. I couldn't really elaborate on why that is the way it is. For me personally, I get great joy out of helping people. I genuinely just feel so happy when somebody either learns something or is better off. It makes me feel good, and I don't expect anything in return because that is not for joy. That is for selfish reasons that I'm like, "No, no, no, we don't need that.
But I, yeah, I don't know why for me, I'm like, "I want to educate and I want to do all these things. And I really want to help people." Maybe it's a part of my mixed-ish-growing-up-ness. I never felt a sense of belonging anywhere. So I want to make sure that people who either look like me identify the same as me, or don't feel that sense of belonging. (laughs)
[00:32:23] Charlie Ocean: I don't want to therapize you, cause I'm just like - I want to push back on something and, with love, gentle love, I nudge back. I don't think Being selfish is a bad thing. And what I mean by that specifically is, especially if you get something out of helping other people, I think if that's one of the motivations, I don't inherently think that's a bad thing. I think it can be abused. I think it can get to a point where it gets really gross, but I don't inherently believe that like taking care of ourselves or getting something out of the work we do is bad.
And I also love that you love nerding out on being in that educational space with folks because, I don't know, I think it benefits everyone, and I imagine that you also love the process of learning, which is part of why you have a bajillion books behind you.
[00:33:13] Candace Rucker: Yeah, I fully agree with you, and I want to thank you for pushing back lovingly. I think that's coming from a place of, I don't want to say trauma because that seems too harsh, but it's coming from a place of experience where someone close in my life would abuse being nice in exchange for something else; very much quid pro quo, but in a bad way.
[00:33:36] Charlie Ocean: Yes.
[00:33:37] Candace Rucker: So that's how I think about it. But that doesn't mean that doing things that provide you joy and then also getting something out of that is selfish. So I want to thank you for that. (laughs)
[00:33:47] Charlie Ocean: You're absolutely welcome. And I'm happy to throw my dad and grandma under a bus because they were those people. They would do something for you with the expectation that later there's a cost and you don't know what that cost is going to be.
[00:33:59] Candace Rucker: Mm-hmm.
[00:34:00] Charlie Ocean: They're going to do something for you that you didn't ask for, which is even worse, and then - which would normally be a nice gesture - but it's for like, well, we did this thing for you long ago, and now you need to do this for us. It's like, first off, never ask for that. Secondly, that's not how that works.
[00:34:13] Candace Rucker: Exactly.
[00:34:14] Charlie Ocean: Don't force me into this situation. This is so fucked on so many levels. And now it's ruined the nice gesture that has happened. And now it makes me fearful of ever getting anything from you again, cause I don't know when you're gonna show up, wanting that thing for me and what that thing is going to be and how much it's going to cost.
[00:34:32] Candace Rucker: Exactly. That is so valid. I feel you on that. I mean, it's gotten to a point where I just stopped asking for help altogether. And people around me are like, "You need help." I'm like, "No, I don't. I never need help. I'm totally fine." (both laugh)
[00:34:46] Charlie Ocean: And I think what made it worse was the fact that they use the family card. These are the things don't use these cards. Stop. They don't exist.
[00:34:55] Candace Rucker: They're not cards for you to use. Yes.
[00:34:58] Charlie Ocean: Did you ever watch Parks and Rec?
[00:35:00] Candace Rucker: Yes.
[00:35:01] Charlie Ocean: Do you remember that episode where Ron Swanson wrote a letter that said "giving himself permission to do something"? I forget the context. There were (Candace laughs) like a fair outside or something they had done. The person that he gave the note to was like, "You wrote this and signed it yourself and stuff." And he's like, "Yes, like I've given myself permission to do this thing or whatever."
I relate to that experience and I appreciate you sharing it cause, it definitely can be something really crunchy and I've definitely gotten a lot better about healing and community and slowly leaning on people more and all that, but also with the understanding there's people who lean on me and I disappoint them too so I need to practice that myself.
As far as like being flexible with understanding that we're all human. Living under capitalism and racism and everything else that's shitty.
[00:35:52] Candace Rucker: The isms and the phobias, what I like to call them.
[00:35:54] Charlie Ocean: Yeah. (Candace laughs) Exactly, exactly. You drew a comparison between Malcolm X's more confrontational approach and Martin Luther King Jr's peaceful angle. How do you see these styles playing out in the current landscape of activism and which one resonates more with you personally. And I say that not wanting to create a binary, but more of there's this complex spectrum of how we all can show up in our activism.
[00:36:25] Candace Rucker: In the comparisons between the two, so when we had this discussion before, and I was kind of hell bent on being like, "No, you can only be either one of those two." But then when we talked and I was like, "Actually, no." You can be fluid, you can go in and out of being very angry and being more so focused on more violent forms of action and things while you can also be more passive and just want to write notes and go through the entire system of having people read them, which is very long and boring. (both laugh)
It taught me that you can be angry and you can be eloquent. You can be both. You don't have to be one or the other. Or you can be neither; you can be a completely different thing. And I think for me, originally, I was very absolutist and very rooted in my anger. Whenever I thought of being Black in America, it made me really, really angry.
And I didn't understand why until I realized that a lot of the history that I had learned was of our suffering and of our hardships and not really of our successes or where we came from, or that we were once kings and queens, all this kind of good stuff, right. And even to this day, it's funny, (laughs) I was just telling my mom and my partner, like two days ago, I was like, "It's Black history month and I'm very excited about that. But I'm gonna let y'all know right now, I'm an angry Black woman this month. Okay. That's just what it is." (laughs)
But then, coming to terms with my queer identity, and especially celebrating, like, Pride Month, and, you know, all the other things, I was like, "I'm really happy about this, like, I'm really genuinely happy." Even though a lot of the histories are intertwined, between Black history and queer history, and a lot of it faces the same hardships and the same struggles. But I focus more on the successes of being queer than being Black.
For me, what I'm really trying to understand is how I can be angry, like in a month, like Black History Month, I can be angry, but also come from a place of understanding and trying to educate and trying to learn myself.
And as I said previously, because I'm on a book kick, I was like, "You know what? I'm tired of not knowing the full history. I'm tired of not being able to educate others on the full history. So I'm like, I'm gonna read all these books. I'm gonna read so many books."
Granted, I got ahead of myself because most of the books I got were like 400 pages and I was like, "Damn Candace. (both laugh) You only got 29 days, you know, you can't be stretching yourself that much." But it has been really helpful to understand what I'm reading from a place of: I'm reading to understand myself and my history. And if other people want to learn along with me, great. If they don't, that's okay.
I'm honestly not going to push you because it took me almost 28 years to be like, "I'm going to teach myself about my own history." It can take you a little longer as long as you do commit to learning at some point, then we're cool.
If you want to be "ignorance is bliss" we may not be so cool. But, you know, do your thing. You, you do you, boo boo. (both laugh)
[00:39:33] Charlie Ocean: The, like, gems you're dropping everywhere for folks listening; I hope people are picking them up. (Candace laughs)
So, Black History Month, I'm curious, your take on it, now that you've brought that up, because I feel like the history isn't so much Black History Month as it is what's happened to Black people in America, and that's not the fullness of your history.
And I know you were nodding with me, so I guess I'm wondering, thinking of your background in PR, (laughs) if you were rebranding Black History Month, what do you think the essence of it is, and what would you want people to get out of it?
Cause I'm, I'm not saying inherently that we should ignore the fact that we have enslaved people and that enslaved people still exist today and - especially for our fancy devices that we use and things like that. So, but yeah, I guess if you were able to rebrand it, what would you want people to get out of it? And what kinds of history would you like there to be amplified?
[00:40:38] Candace Rucker: I would rebrand it as a month of dedicated learning. I think a lot of us have a lot of learning to do because we, you know, I think when people hear Black History Month, they're like, "Oh, okay, we're going to talk about Martin Luther King Jr. We're going to talk about Malcolm X. We're going to talk about slavery, maybe Harriet Tubman, Rose Parks."
It's like, "Okay, yeah, we're going to talk about all those things, but yes. (Charlie laughs) But I'm like, but if we keep talking about only those things, are we really doing anything about it? Are we really learning anything?"
So, yeah, another book for you. (laughs) One that I'm currently reading. (Charlie laughs) I told you this was a book month! (laughs)
[00:41:12] Charlie Ocean: This is Reading Rainbow. Okay. No, this is great. I just -
[00:41:16] Candace Rucker: Reading Rainbow! (laughs)
[00:41:17] Charlie Ocean: It's such a good show. I love him.
[00:41:20] Candace Rucker: It is.
[00:41:21] Charlie Ocean: He's a national treasure. I feel like we need you to have your own book podcast or something that's like a video of long -
[00:41:29] Candace Rucker: See that's the thing is I'm not a bookie, like I've never been that much of a bookworm in my life. Just recently I was like "Oh my god I have to learn all these things." And I do plan to post these on my socials, at some point, on like these are the books I read for Black History Month because they really helped me.
But this is "Black AF History" which I was like, "I like the title, so we 'add to cart'." You know? (laughs)
[00:41:52] Charlie Ocean: You got my attention. Great marketing.
[00:41:55] Candace Rucker: Yup. So it starts off a lot about the actual history of how people settled on certain parts of the country that we are in, mainly European people who are, you know, either British or Spanish or Portuge- Portu- Portuguese? Yes. (both laugh)
And that's something that, I mean, I had never learned, so I literally just learned why America is called "America," which I had no idea before. Yeah, it's a crazy thing. So there was this dude, right? (laughs)
[00:42:23] Charlie Ocean: Always. This always starts with a dude.
[00:42:26] Candace Rucker: Yeah. He was an Italian and he came over to Spain and he met Christopher Columbus and Christopher Columbus was like, "I'm amazing and I know everything in the world and we're gonna go exploring." And this guy's name is Amerigo Vespucci and he was like, "Oh, I also know a lot about geography and I'm really interested in it. So we should team up and do all this stuff together."
Turns out Amerigo was a liar. (laughs) A big ol' liar. Had literally, I think, only been on a ship once. Had never left this Italian, like, Italy, Spain, Portugal area. Like, just, that was it. That's all he knew. But was like, "Oh, I'm a renowned cosmographer. I can make maps and I can do all the geography things." And he just kept telling everybody this, so everybody started to believe him.
And then after Christopher Columbus died, he was like, "Oh, I taught Christopher Columbus everything he knows, you know, I am amazing. I did all of that." So, when they landed on the "New World," they were like, "We should give this a very good name. We should call it-" I think it was, Amer- Amerige? Amerigay? Something like that.
But that, in I think in Italian or Spanish, meant "Land of Amerigo", America. Which - oh, in the book, the author writes, he was like, "Which is honestly a really fitting name for a country that was also built on lies and deception." (laughs)
[00:43:40] Charlie Ocean: Well.
[00:43:41] Candace Rucker: Yeah.
[00:43:42] Charlie Ocean: Today I learned -
[00:43:43] Candace Rucker: One of the things that I'm like, there's so much interesting things that I'm learning that I would have never ever known before. And I'm like mostly coming from a place of "can you believe this random fact that I just learned!" (laughs) You know, it's not like a "why didn't you fucking know this," (laughs) but it's more of like, "Oh yeah! (Charlie laughs) What is history? This is crazy!" (laughs)
[00:44:00] Charlie Ocean: I love it. I just want you to start multiple podcasts. All right. (Candace laughs) What the fuck I learned this week? Um, yeah. (Candace laughs) Oh my gosh.
Not ones to stray from crunchy conversations, you and I had a very enlightening conversation. Something that you had brought up, I've been more recently, saying, instead of "marginalized" or something, I've been saying "historically underrepresented" or "historically excluded groups."
And then my friend Shane came on the podcast recently and talked about how like, but then that kind of ignores that it's also current. With, for me, I thought it was a given that it was also current, but I'm like, "Okay, cool." So like, I can say "historically and currently (laughs) excluded groups."
Then you, you had brought forth the term -
[00:44:56] Candace Rucker: "Under recognized." Yeah, but then we came up with a great term together. (laughs)
[00:45:02] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, and we're gonna drop that worldwide premiere here- (sound clip of new section intro) because when you said "underrecognized," yes, and I feel like sometimes the representation is misaligned, because groups will be known for certain things that are not necessarily true by way of systemic racism and things like that.
I had (laughs) offered maybe "misrecognized," so are we saying "misrecognized groups"? I don't know.
[00:45:39] Candace Rucker: I would treat it more -
[00:45:41] Charlie Ocean: (laughs) That's the great reveal.
[00:45:42] Candace Rucker: I know. Great reveal: "Misrecognized." (both laugh)
That could even be a fun little shirt, like "Miss", M-I-S-S, and then "recognized." (laughs) Sorry, sorry, I'm getting too ahead of myself. (both laugh)
I think when I think of the term "misrecognize", I don't think of it as like, groups, because that's just kind of fitting the whole mold of what we want to break, right. We don't want to group certain people together based on certain characteristics that they share in common. I think "misrecognized" is just the term as it is; it's just the noun. You know, "I'm a misrecognized individual," or "That is a misrecognized," "They are misrecognized." You know, it's like that's just, we are misrecognized. Period.
[00:46:21] Charlie Ocean: Or misrepresented.
[00:46:24] Candace Rucker: Yeah. Either one. Those would make some great shirts. You have to, come on, they would make some great shirts. (both laughs)
[00:46:32] Charlie Ocean: We were going on that path together, so happy to, you know, work on the merch with you and figure out the split of profits and everything.
But yeah, saying something like, "historically excluded groups," etc. I mean, I still think there's probably times where it's relevant to say things like that, but it just depends on the context too, right. But I don't know. Language is interesting. And then I think we had also gotten into a whole conversation about, "Does any of this even matter? Do words matter?"
[00:47:03] Candace Rucker: Yeah.
[00:47:03] Charlie Ocean: I don't know. And like, yes and no.
[00:47:05] Candace Rucker: Yes and no.
[00:47:06] Charlie Ocean: I mean, don't want to get super particular about every word and I think that some things are just too important to not have some sort of representation, again by especially a way of shorthand or something, like that we know what we're talking about. And It's also tricky to like, keep up with all the language too.
[00:47:27] Candace Rucker: Yeah.
[00:47:28] Charlie Ocean: It's not inherently why we shouldn't actively work to do it.
[00:47:31] Candace Rucker: Yeah.
[00:47:32] Charlie Ocean: And, humaning is, is just really hard lately. (laughs) I'm just gonna keep coming back to that.
[00:47:37] Candace Rucker: It is, it is.
[00:47:38] Charlie Ocean: Maybe we can collectively agree that it's just really hard to be a human right now. Regardless of who you are. Even privilege and all that aside, I just think it's hard to human right now.
[00:47:45] Candace Rucker: Yeah.
[00:47:46] Charlie Ocean: Cause there's just a lot happening.
[00:47:48] Candace Rucker: Yeah. The saying I've been using lately is, life be lifin a little too hard lately. (both laugh) So, that's how I feel.
[00:47:58] Charlie Ocean: Uh-huh.
[00:47:59] Candace Rucker: To me, the systems that be, the ones that were created, were created in such a, I'm gonna create this word, jargonistic way, (laughs) that, I mean, it was made to be vague. It's like the undertones of the people who get it, get it, the people who don't, don't, right? And the people who get it are the people who have always been on top and have always been looked at as the model of what society should reflect, right.
And one of the things that I had often kind of explored in that whole idea of "you can be angry and eloquent" is like you can be angry, but if you're eloquent enough to play the game that has already been set up for you and win, why not do that? Why not fight - not fire with fire. Because me as an Aries, I do want to do that, but (laughs) it's not healthy.
[00:48:54] Charlie Ocean: The queerness is coming through. Yep. (Candace laughs)
[00:48:58] Candace Rucker: Basically, what I'm - what I say is that if people who are creating these laws and legislations and enforcing them and saying all these things, are fighting with very vague and very hardly understood words, why not do the same right back at them? Because then they can't fight you; you're doing the exact same thing.
I had a, I had an example the other day where somebody was talking about how their procurement practices were going to be reviewed because they were not inclusive. So their procurement practices were focused on supporting LGBTQ+ owned, minority owned, and women owned businesses. And people were fighting like, "Well that's not 'inclusive' because you're excluding a very large portion of businesses." Right, and to be fair, they are correct.
But, and then I was like, "What if you just change the term to 'community-owned businesses'." Right. And granted, that's not the end all be all. I'm not saying that that's what it should be, but it's more of like every big corporation, or small corporation, wants to support the businesses in their community, right. And now technically that means they are inclusive of all the businesses in that community.
What it doesn't say is that we're going to focus on specific businesses in the community that are LGBTQ+ owned, minority owned, and women owned.
[00:50:11] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, words are hard, language is hard. (Candace laughs) I like the clever sidestep of "community-owned businesses."
What's one allyship tip you'd like everyone listening to consider?
[00:50:24] Candace Rucker: I think there are themes throughout this conversation that I brought it up, and definitely one of my things that I'm trying to work on, but: continue to be curious and continue to want to learn. Because the moment you stop seeking knowledge is the moment you start becoming, I'm not going to say "complicit," but borderline. (laughs) It's a great way to continue to pass on the actual truth and knowledge of what's happening. And what has happened, what is happening, and what will happen, right. So the biggest point that I have to offer is be curious and never stop learning.
[00:51:01] Charlie Ocean: Candice, thank you so much for being on the podcast. And being open to the connection request on LinkedIn just a couple of months ago.
I've really been appreciating our conversations and I can't wait to have more, so thank you for taking a chance on me and just constantly having wonderful conversations with me. I feel so, stimulated in a delightful way (laughs) every time that we talk and meet, and I can't wait to see what trouble we get into next.
Before we dive into the final three self-reflection questions. I just wanted to let you know that we have merch! If you didn't know that, we have a shop on Bonfire, there's a few different designs, including the cover. And I have to say, because I have so many wonderful friends who bought the merch, especially some of them as soon as it dropped, thank you, and have also checked out more recent drops: the number one feedback I get is how comfortable the items are.
I know some people were like practically living in the hoodies for a while (laughs) and, yeah, I have a bunch myself. I have a handful of the shirts and hoodies and sweatshirts, so if you are looking for some comfortable clothing, (laughs) feel free to check it out, and it helps support the podcast.
It also really melts my heart, or warms my heart, both, both, (laughs) when people send me photos of them wearing the merch. So, feel free to reach out to me, especially on Instagram or LinkedIn, with any photos you might have.
That said, the final three self-reflection questions are:
4. Do I think there is such a thing as queer music? If so, what is it?
5. Do I think about my unique intersections?
6. When was the last time I got curious? What did I learn?
Visit AllyshipIsAVerb.com for any resources and a full transcript of the episode.
And remember, sometimes allyship means continuing to be curious and wanting to learn.