Lena Dirscherl
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Prepare yourself to stand up for others when they are not around! This week, Lena Dirscherl (they/them) expands on some of the many factors that influence gender. In this episode, you will learn: 1. What our thoughts are on the term "transgender" and where we think it's heading in the future. 2. Some of the many different definitions of "queer" or "queerness." 3. How "sex" and "gender" are made-up concepts and why that matters.
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Full Transcript
[00:00:00] Chris Angel Murphy: Well, hello there. I’m Chris Angel and my pronouns are they/them. Welcome to Allyship is a Verb, a podcast for people practicing allyship for the LGBTQ+ community and beyond!
[00:00:25] Lena Dirscherl: Hey, my name is Lena Dirscherl and my pronouns are they/them.
[00:00:30] Chris Angel Murphy: Lena is a badass illustrator and designer located in Germany. They have been working as a professional freelance illustrator and comic artist since 2014.
You probably already follow them or have seen their work, especially if you're following me on Instagram. Their body positive series started on Instagram back in August of 2016, and it's still going strong. It's usually an image of a body type we don't see normalized, especially in Hollywood, featuring a message such as “Healthy is an outfit that looks different on everybody.”
They've got a Patreon, Instagram, and other places you can follow and support their work. I usually have 20 questions for people just in case we need to skip anything or go through answers quickly. Our problem was we didn't have enough time, so expect a part two next year and maybe we'll get through a few more because we only got through like eight, at best.
Yeah, I thought it was pretty cool because we got to get into some things more deeply that we're really passionate about, and it's just more conversational, so hopefully you'll enjoy this one.
You may have noticed if you've been here for a while, that I am switching things up a bit - just tiny little changes. So let's dive into our first three self-reflection questions to mull over as you listen to our conversation.
1. Are there any stereotypes I fit? How do I feel about that?
2. Of all the labels and identities I claim, which are most important to me? Why?
3. What influences how I experience and relate to my gender?
And now, our conversation.
I love it [Lena laughs]. And you sound like so cheerful in the second version.
Lena Dirscherl: Yeah [laughs] I noticed that as well.
Chris Angel Murphy: Not, not that you [laughs] -
Lena Dirscherl: I was like, oh my God,
Chris Angel Murphy: You like really perked up [both laugh]. Not, not that the first time was like down or anything. It's just like, it was like, you really brought it, you really sold me
Lena Dirscherl: Awesome.
Chris Angel Murphy: Um, oh god, this, this is like what the interview's gonna be like.
Okay, you are queer, nonbinary, genderqueer, pansexual, bisexual, trans, and polyamorous. What do those identities mean to you?
[00:03:08] Lena Dirscherl: It's weird to hear them all at once. Like, oh my god, that's, that's a lot.
[00:03:14] Chris Angel Murphy: But wait, there's more. If you call in now, we'll throw in five more side, like, identities for free.
Lena Dirscherl: Oh yes.
Chris Angel Murphy: I don't know what I'm talking about [laughs].
[00:03:23] Lena Dirscherl: I'm just silly. I love that though [both laugh].
[00:03:26] Chris Angel Murphy: Um, thank you.
[00:03:28] Lena Dirscherl: I use some of them like interchangeably. For example, for my gender identity, I say I'm nonbinary, and I really resonate with that. But I also like the word genderqueer, it's a bit more open. I don't know, it just has room for growth. I really like “nonbinary” as a concept, but also it's, in a way, it's an umbrella term for a lot of things.
The word itself, like the term still uses like a “non” a “no”, as like the first syllable, so I think that's- it's a bit negative. Like that's why I like “genderqueer” a lot. So yeah, I use both of those terms. But I think “nonbinary” is the, the one that more people know or use. So that's, that's why this is the one that I always use when people ask me for my gender.
Yeah, when it comes to my sexuality, I usually say that I'm pansexual. But I don't really mind when people call me bisexual, for example. I think those two terms also go hand in hand and for some people those two terms mean different things, but it's very, very similar. I think what I like about “pansexual” is that you signal to others like, “I like men, women, and also nonbinary folks, genderqueer folks, like all of the people.”
And I'm not only limited to men or women. That's why I like the term I- because then others know, “Okay, Lena might be interested in me too. . .” [laughs]
[00:05:14] Chris Angel Murphy: There's hope [laughs].
[00:05:14] Lena Dirscherl: Yeah. Yeah, there's hope guys [both laugh]. When we talk about bisexuality, most people think it's limited to only men and women, even though that doesn't have to be the case. But that's why I use that term less. Except when I'm, like, with cis hetero people who don't know anything, and I'm like, “I'm, I'm not willing to explain pansexuality to you”. I'm just- I'm just telling them that I'm bi [laughs].
[00:05:42] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah. I resonate with a, a lot of what you shared because I think I am, um, leading more with just calling myself “neuroqueer” since I'm late diagnosed for ADHD and autism. Now that I understand those pieces of myself, I now understand my autism in particular and my ADHD, but mostly my autism, really informs my gender.
When I'm thinking about gender roles, I don't care about being masculine or anything - that's not the point for me. So people are just like, “Why are you then dressed that way? Why do you have a beard? Why did you have surgeries and hormones and all this stuff?” And it’s like, I couldn't tell you before other than I was trying to neutralize myself and it's like, “Well then, why is men or a ‘male’ body the default?” Then that didn't feel good, right?
Lena Dirscherl: Mm-hmm.
Chris Angel Murphy: So where neuroqueer comes in is, for me, it addresses the fact that I am neurodivergent, I am queer, in a million different senses, and that autism - and again, ADHD, but mostly autism - heavily influences my decisions.
So what I mean by that is mostly sensory stuff. Like, I wanted the surgeries because I didn't like the sensory experience of having a period or menstruating. I didn't like the sensory experience of having a larger chest. It's just easier to have a shorter haircut that I can just wash and go and I don't have to like mess with it a lot. Or, I hate the feeling of makeup on my face. Oh my God. Do you wanna make it worse? Glitter bomb me [Lena laughs]. I probably shouldn't tell that to everyone who listens to this [laughs].
But like I wasn’t trying to avoid girls' clothing, it's just that when I looked at clothing, I tended to gravitate more toward like “boy clothes” or “guy clothes”, quote unquote, because it was just more comfortable.
Lena Dirscherl: Mm-hmm.
Chris Angel Murphy: The fabric was more comfortable, is more comfortable. Um, I'm not dealing with stuff that's making me super itchy. The colors are a little bit easier on my eyes, like all of these different things. But again, none of it is about like me trying to be masculine, really. It's just, this is more comfortable for me.
It requires a lot more explanation, but anyway, I know that there's been a lot of people who have been wondering why I'm using that now, and I guess I felt like this was a good opportunity to address that. So thank you for letting me [laughs].
[00:08:06] Lena Dirscherl: I love that you're using that term for you, and I think like I've heard it before and I think more people should hear about it and learn about it. And what it demonstrates for me is that gender is just so much more complicated than we think, and I think a lot of people, especially a lot of cis people, think that gender often is linked to sex, but it's- in a way, it's linked to everything. Like, it's linked to our culture and the way we perceive, for example, men and women and what we think they should do and, like, act like and wear and whatever.
It also depends on our culture. Even if we both are like part of, like a western tradition of western culture, I think there are already differences between like German masculinity and femininity and American masculinity and femininity. So the location in which you grow up, or where you grow up, already, influences your gender.
And your sexuality, in a way, can influence your gender as well. Like, a lesbian woman might see her own womanhood differently than a heterosexual woman. Why shouldn't autism or neurodiversity, why shouldn't it also influence your gender? So, yeah, I - that's really cool. Thanks for sharing. I love that.
[00:09:34] Chris Angel Murphy: Thanks for holding that space. I, yeah, I've come across a few more terms now. Like there's also “neurogender.”
Lena Dirscherl: Mm-hmm.
Chris Angel Murphy: So I guess I could say I'm neuroqueer and neurogender, but honestly it just feels easier to say neuroqueer, cause again that “queer” being such an umbrella for gender, for sexuality, for lifestyle, and asterisks there - we'll get to that. But, you know, just for so many things, politically, like all- all of it.
But, you already told me that you love queer because it's a blob.
Lena Dirscherl: Mm-hmm.
Chris Angel Murphy: And there is considerable possibility. I love thinking about queer being a blob [Lena laughs], but you defined it as one who is not cis het, but can be anything else. Can you share more about that?
[00:10:19] Lena Dirscherl: It holds room or it holds space for, for growth. Queer used to be something different in the past than it is now, and it will be something different in the future. The threat that I'm seeing is that queer is something that is different from a cis, heterosexual society and from cis, heterosexual norms.
What I love about it is that it holds space for things that we don't have concepts for yet. There will be new terms, in the future and there are new possibilities, and queer encompasses all of them. I think what I like about queer is it’s inclusive and we, as a community, we want inclusivity. So it's perfect in a way [laughs].
[00:11:10] Chris Angel Murphy: Being someone who's known and learned about this community since I was like, early in high school, I was preparing to train a bunch of MFT students, so marriage family therapists, um, on LGBTQ+ 101, all this fun stuff, and I just had this epiphany. I was like, “I hate the term transgender.”
Lena Dirscherl: Mm-hmm.
Chris Angel Murphy: But the reason, and I say that as someone who has identified as trans for a long time, now, it's less that I hate the word, it's more that I hate the current definition.
Lena Dirscherl: Mm-hmm.
Chris Angel Murphy: The one that I've seen the most. The one that I hear the most is where we say, “It's when someone's gender identity doesn't align with the sex assignment at birth.” It's just part of the like conflation that happens. And so that's actually why I hate it, is because my sex doesn't necessarily have anything to do with my gender. They are two different concepts. Those are two different things.
And so here's what happens, right? So like if I say, “Well, I was a girl and now I'm nonbinary.” That's not true because I was gaslit into believing I was a girl, and even then I still didn't believe it. And I was held to these, like, norms and expectations, but like had I had the language of “nonbinary”, I probably would've chosen that.
Lena Dirscherl: Oh, same.
Chris Angel Murphy: But I didn't, again - we didn't have that education.
Lena Dirscherl: Yeah.
Chris Angel Murphy: The concepts were there, but we didn't have the language for it.
Lena Dirscherl: Yes.
Chris Angel Murphy: I didn't really, in my mind, transition from a girl to nonbinary. I've just, I've always been nonbinary and maybe like you said, I'll find new language for it, but that's like where I'm at now. So then here's where I further complicate things - cause I'm really good at making things complicated [Lena laughs] - if trans, therefore, were changed to, “you are changing from one gender to another.”
Lena Dirscherl: Mm-hmm.
Chris Angel Murphy: I just don't fit that, cause again, I didn't make that change. But if that's the label or that's the definition rather, that you're giving to trans, to me, a lot more people would be trans. Now, with the caveat that people need to claim that identity, I'm not just gonna throw it on people, but for me, that means girl and woman to me are two different genders, boy and man for me, two different genders. So if someone is in girlhood and then they're in womanhood -
Lena Dirscherl: Yeah.
Chris Angel Murphy: To me, they're trans. If we're going off that definition I just said, of changing from one gender to another.
[00:13:33] Lena Dirscherl: In a way they are transitioning, like you are not wrong about that. That girl and woman are different like yeah, “genders,” if you define it that way, they are transitioning. It's, I think girl and woman is like a transition with Pokemon [Chris Angel laughs], where you are like, okay, first you're Pikachu and then you're Raichu and everybody expects you to become Raichu. And people get upset if it's a completely different Pokemon [laughs].
But yeah, no, I get why you hesitate with the term “trans” or “transness” or “transgender”. The definition we have right now makes sense for our social context that we have right now. But if society changes and gets more inclusive, more trans-friendly or queer-friendly, the definition we have right now will fall apart and it won't work anymore.
Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.
Lena Dirscherl: Because maybe we will live in a future in which, uh, babies don't get an assigned sex or gender at birth, and then the definition doesn't work anymore. So it's, it's like a time capsule we are in. And I see the term transgender as a tool. I see it as a tool to connect with people who have similar experiences and experience similar discrimination. It's like a tool to fight against oppression.
[00:15:01] Chris Angel Murphy: But it also then introduces a new binary.
[00:15:06] Lena Dirscherl: Oh yeah, totally.
[00:15:07] Chris Angel Murphy: Because I have a friend who's been on the podcast twice, Josée and -
Lena Dirscherl: mm-hmm.
Chris Angel Murphy: She had updated earlier this year - uses she/they pronouns - so they had updated all of us that, they are a woman and also genderqueer. So then I'm like, “So what does that make you cis+, you know, the new subscription service [both laugh].
Lena Dirscherl: I love that.
Chris Angel Murphy: I don't know what's on there, but something fun. Yeah. So then, where does that leave my friend? And my friend couldn't even tell you because when we got into it, like, it's just something that they're gonna have to explore more.
[00:15:45] Lena Dirscherl: Mm-hmm. In a perfect world, and we're not living in that world, but I think in a perfect world, we don't need the term “transgender” at all anymore. Even if you say, you want to “medically transition” or you want to take hormones, or whatever, you would just say, “Hey, I think I'm that,” “I think I'm nonbinary,” “I think I'm a man,” “I think I'm a woman.” And people will just believe you and treat you that way.
And then you don't have to transition because you just are - don't even need to define yourself at all. It's something you, you need as long as the world isn't just, yet.
Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.
Lena Dirscherl: Isn't, a fair place yet. Um, what you can see critical about the term transgender is, when the definition is “you identify with a different gender than the sex you, you have been assigned at birth” it also creates this illusion that like, sex is natural and like permanent. Sex is also made up. People hate it when we say that and we need to explain it more, but sex, just as gender, is like a made up concept by humans. Because we love to put things into boxes and we also love to put nature into boxes, even though nature doesn't really fit in our box.
And sex is a spectrum, and it always has been. And sex can change like we have, like in school, we learned that your genitals do tell you what sex you have, but it's actually like five different things in your body, and they have to align in a very specific way to be either male or female. Nature doesn't work that way, so it doesn't always align for people.
Chris Angel Murphy: Mm-hmm.
Lena Dirscherl: I don't even know if all of those five things align for me. I haven't been tested on all of them. People just assumed because they saw me as a baby and were like, “Okay. I think, I think that works that way.” And I think we need to talk about the fact more that sex is also just as made up as gender - doesn't like really mean anything. It doesn't make any sense at all [laughs].
[00:18:04] Chris Angel Murphy: Yes. Yes. And the sooner that we can get behind that, then I think we could stop living in these like very rigid boxes, like you were talking about. Because another problem, for me, when we conflate sex and gender is that it perpetuates that harmful narrative that we're born in the wrong body, and we have to hate our body, and we have to –
Lena Dirscherl: mm-hmm.
Chris Angel Murphy: Want to change it. And that's not everyone's experience.
[00:18:30] Lena Dirscherl: Yes, exactly. There's also fights within the transgender community about that, which is really upsetting. It's so sad that we're not allies for each other, but we're trying to gatekeep what transgender really is, and like those transmedicalists who say you have to have surgery in order to be a “true” transgender person, or transsexual, or whatever.
And it's like, first of all, you need to have the money and in some countries you're not allowed to. Like, you need the opportunity. Maybe your body wouldn't be able to survive it. Maybe you have a chronical illness or whatever, so you, you can’t have a surgery and maybe you don't want to have a surgery. Like, this shouldn't be a marker for your transness.
When it comes to binary transgender people and nonbinary transgender people, there's also conflict sometimes, like, “Oh, those nonbinary people are ruining, uh, everything for us. Like we, we are the good ones. We want to fit into a society and we want to pass. And now the nonbinary people are coming along and messing everything up.” [laughs]
And it's like, it's sad that we try to appease, like, cis het people and that we try to make them feel comfortable so they accept us. And as soon as someone else is like, “No, I don't want to make them feel comfortable. I want to feel comfortable. I want to live out my gender the way I feel good about it.” Then the other people are like, “What the hell is happening? That's not okay.
Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.
Lena Dirscherl: All those internal fighting within the transgender community is, is just hurting us. It's getting us nowhere to be honest.
[00:20:13] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah. Talking about gatekeeping, I didn't think I'd see that within like the nonbinary community, but then someone told me that they've heard and experienced this. This, that to be nonbinary you have to have no nipples. And I was like -
Lena Dirscherl: Oof.
Chris Angel Murphy: What?
Lena Dirscherl: Okay.
Chris Angel Murphy: Again, comes back to: sometimes people elect not to do it because it does take more time to correct the nipples and everything and have them the right size, whatever. Again, if someone's doing all of that.
Lena Dirscherl: Mm-hmm.
Chris Angel Murphy: Sometimes people, yeah, they lect to just have none because they don't want it, they're not attached to those. But like, to gatekeep and say like, “You can't be nonbinary if you have nipples.” Well, then I'm out, I have nipples [laughs]. Like, I just -
[00:20:59] Lena Dirscherl: That's weird and really specific.
[00:21:04] Chris Angel Murphy: So then you were talking too, about like the marker for transness, and some of that can be gender affirming surgeries, but then it- I always bump up against, I just hate how easy it is for cisgender people to get surgeries, gender affirming surgeries.
Lena Dirscherl: Oh yeah.
Chris Angel Murphy: Because they do it all the time, but they're not seeing the double standard there.
Lena Dirscherl: Totally.
Chris Angel Murphy: Thinking back to what I just shared earlier of my being neuroqueer. If I didn't let surgeons, doctors, et cetera, believe that I was a trans guy, especially at the time that I started my medical transition, which was around 2008- I couldn't say I was genderqueer. I couldn't say I was nonbinary. I don't even know that I had the language for nonbinary back then, but I definitely did for genderqueer. I let them believe I was a trans guy because I knew that otherwise they weren't advanced enough to help me if I was in that nonbinary space, I knew that they would deny me and then they would fight me on it.
So now imagine, I'm not saying I'm a trans guy, maybe I don't even really talk about being nonbinary if I'm even explaining it through that sensory lens that I shared with you.
Lena Dirscherl: Mm-hmm.
Chris Angel Murphy: That's more medical gatekeeping because then they're especially probably not going to let me have access to surgery.
Lena Dirscherl: Mm-hmm.
Chris Angel Murphy: Or hormone replacement therapy if they think it's just like a sensory thing. But that's still like a, a medical need for me. .
[00:22:24] Lena Dirscherl: Mm-hmm. In Germany, you have to jump through a lot of hoops if you want to get surgery. There isn't anything for nonbinary people. So in order for me to get surgery, I would have to pretend to be a trans man.
But the thing is, they have rules what comes first. So I think I would have to take hormones first, for at least six months, before I can have top surgery. Which is ridiculous because, like, I don't want to take hormones, but I have no other chance. Or I have to go to another country and get surgery there. But it's really frustrating and like that's not the only hoop I have to jump through.
Like you have to go see at least two psychiatrists and you have to convince them that you are trans enough, whatever that means [Chris Angel laughs]. They ask really personal, intrusive questions, which are so problematic. If they would ask those questions to everyone, not just trans people, also cis people, most people would fail, like cis people, answering those questions.
Yeah, those laws need to be changed. Um, they're holding so many people back and they're also holding me back. It's, it's really frustrating.
[00:23:43] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah. Well then you're an artist, you've seen, especially throughout our history, the norms of what's considered beautiful or attractive change, wildly. So sometimes it's people who have no butt, sometimes it's people that have a shelf back there [Lena laughs], sometimes - you know, like it changes.
Lena Dirscherl: Yeah.
Chris Angel Murphy: And it changes for the different genders. So I could imagine then taking it a step further and like the surgeon being like, “Well, you know, big butts aren't really in right now. Are you sure you want these implants?” Da, da, da. You know, cause their bias can come through.
Lena Dirscherl: Mm-hmm.
Chris Angel Murphy: I don't know why cis and straight people are fighting this so hard because we're just trying to liberate everyone. I think people look at us and they're just like, “You're trying to erase gender and stuff.” We're literally just trying to make it more expansive so all of us can live more comfortably in this gray area. We don't have to hold ourselves to these rigid standards.
But we're coming off as if we're like these monsters for dare suggesting that idea like there's going to be mass chaos [both laugh].
[00:24:50] Lena Dirscherl: Uh, that reminds me of a story. A boyfriend of a friend of mine, he was raised as a traditional boy. Like, boys don't cry, men don't show emotions, blah, blah, blah. All that stuff. He kept to that script, not showing his emotions, like putting on a poker face and a hard shell. Maybe sometimes make jokes about women because that's also very manly.
And then heard about feminism and feminist telling him that his way of masculinity is toxic and that man should show emotions, or should be able to show emotions, and blah, blah, blah. Instead of feeling liberated, he got really angry. He was like, “Well, I was brought up that way, and now you say that way is wrong. I don't know what I can be now. Like what script can I follow?”
You don't have to follow a script, you can just be yourself. But he didn't see it that way. Like he was so insecure about his own gender that he didn't know how to act anymore, and he got very angry about feminism, or like against feminism. “Why do they want to change things?”
When the script has been working for him, he was holding onto that script so tightly. I think he never experienced how he himself could have been and could have blossomed without that script. We wouldn't need the term “transness” or “transgender” if there wasn't a script at all. If like humans could just be themselves.
[00:26:37] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.
[announcement break]
Chris Angel Murphy: Adding another layer to this: one way to view queerness is that it throws a wrench in the binaries of our understanding of gender and sexuality. It disrupts cis heteronormativity and other limiting systems that just don't serve us. I know that you believe it's up to us to create our future; that there's no model we can follow, we have to go along and see what works for us. How have you done that in your own?
[00:27:06] Lena Dirscherl: That's a very good question. I think I've done that in a lot of different little steps. For most of my life I've just been in monogamous relationships. I, I don't know when, but at some point in my life I've heard about the, the term polyamory, and I was really curious.
I think there were like two sides in me, or like two. Two versions of me inside of me who were - one version was like, “How can this work? Isn't that impossible?” And the other version was like super intrigued and was like, “Okay, that sounds actually pretty exciting. And it makes a lot of sense.” Like when you're single, it's okay to find more than one person attractive, but as soon as you're in a relationship, you're not allowed anymore.
Nothing changed about you. It's just a status that changed that the society you live in made up, like, you are in a relationship now. But you're still a person that finds other people attractive or can fall in love, or whatever. I realized for myself, I am open to being in a polyamorous relationship, and for the longest time that didn't happen, and that was okay with me. I just knew that I can hold space for.
Now I am in a polyamorous relationship and it works. It's great [laughs].
Chris Angel Murphy: Congrats.
Lena Dirscherl: Thank you. And that's, for example, something that nobody taught me and I have to find out myself what works by connecting with other people who are also trying that for themselves. Finding that out for me is liberating for myself, but also talking about it and being open, and not hiding the fact that I have more than one partner, shows other people that there is a way or that there is something else that - that there are more options in your life than you thought there are. Turns out more people than you know are interested in polyamory. I think part of it is being very open about what you are, so others can see you and see that this is also a path that they can take.
[00:29:26] Chris Angel Murphy: I know typically we would call that like a role model, but I follow this really amazing account on Instagram called Queerency, at least I think that's how it's pronounced, this lovely human named Travers runs it. And I was watching a reel he did, and he talked about someone being a possibility model, and I was like, “Oh, I like that a lot.” It feels like less pressure than being a role model, cause I feel like there's this inherent like pedestal.
Lena Dirscherl: Yeah.
Chris Angel Murphy: And I don't like that hierarchy. It doesn't feel good.
Lena Dirscherl: Yes.
Chris Angel Murphy: For anyone.
[00:30:04] Lena Dirscherl: Role model sounds like, it sounds like a box again. Like, this is the role you can take. You have to follow all of these steps.
You have to follow all the steps your role model showed you. But if it’s - What was the term? I already forgot [laughs].
[00:30:22] Chris Angel Murphy: The possibility model.
[00:30:22] Lena Dirscherl: Yeah, possibility model. That's so good because it shows you a possibility and you can pick and choose what works for you and you don't have to like follow the same path 100% or fill in that role. You can just take the things that you like [laughs].
[00:30:38] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah, there's like I think of it [laughs] - I don't know, oh god, this isn't sponsored - but I used to go to Hometown Buffet with my family. It was this chain that you pay a certain fee for everyone and yeah, you go in and there's all these different kinds of food in there. It just reminds me of, yeah, going to a buffet and you get to choose from what you want and you get to try things and you can try just a little bit of it, and then you can go back for more if you're into it, right. So it's just-
Lena Dirscherl: Mm-hmm.
Chris Angel Murphy: The Queer Buffet [laughs], it's basically, we are trying to serve the queer buffet and really just need people to get behind that.
[00:31:12] Lena Dirscherl: Oh yes, I love that.
[00:31:14] Chris Angel Murphy: Because you can go and you can still decide that you're a cisgender woman and that you like femininity and that you like it a certain way that you feel is traditional. You know? I'm not saying don't do that. It's just like, just recognize there are other possibilities.
[00:31:29] Lena Dirscherl: Yeah. If you have all those possibilities in front of you, if you have the buffet in front of you, then decide, “No, I want to be a feminine, cis woman.” That's totally okay and that's great, but at least you had the possibility to think about what else you could be or what else you could want.
This is the freedom that we basically want. We want everyone to have the freedom to learn who they are, learn the right terms, and yeah, hear others talk about their experiences. So you yourself can decide what path you want to take and that's basically it.
[00:32:13] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah. Cause I wonder how many more people are fluid in their gender, their sexuality, their expression, but they're afraid because of peer pressure, because society still isn't accepting. I mean, we're a hot mess over here in the States.
In some ways it feels like this queer utopia, this queer buffet utopia situation, is like a pipe dream. Because it feels like we're fucking around and finding out and reporting back, and just, yeah, trying to enlighten people. That's, that's really what I see.
Lena Dirscherl: Mm-hmm.
Chris Angel Murphy: I'm not trying to push it on anyone.
[00:32:47] Lena Dirscherl: Yeah. I wonder about my ancestors, like I am probably not the only one in my family who is or was queer. And I wonder about those people like hundreds of years ago who didn't even have the chance to explore that, because they didn't have the language, and all the norms were even more rigid and strict. If they would've been able to live openly, they could have inspired their children or their grandchildren, and that would've made that easier for them as well.
We will become those ancestors to others. Even if it isn't biological, you can be like a spiritual ancestor to other queers, for example.
[00:33:33] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah. I like to believe that our ancestors are just cheering us on because we're beyond their wildest dreams.
Lena Dirscherl: Aww.
Chris Angel Murphy: That's how I choose to see it. I can feel empathy for how it must have been for them, and if they even had an opportunity to go into like secret societies where they had some sort of space, they could be themselves - whatever that looked like.
It'll be interesting to see what like future generations are dealing with if our planet still exists because we're ruining it. But that's a different story. Oh my gosh.
[00:34:06] Lena Dirscherl: Yeah. Oh God. Let's not talk about the future. That's frustrating.
[00:34:09] Chris Angel Murphy: It stresses me out.
Lena Dirscherl: Me too.
Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah. So I was reading your Instagram bio and I noticed that two other identities you shared out were that you're vegan and a feminist. And I'm curious if that was influenced at all by your exploration into queerness or is that something that happened first? I guess I'm curious how that all came to you.
[00:34:35] Lena Dirscherl: What's the timeline? [both laugh] So I would say, I realized what my sexuality is first. When I was a teenager, I realized I'm probably bisexual. There was a point where I'm like, “I think I only like women, or do I like women because I think it's cool.” Like this is already gay [Chris Angel laughs]. Like if you think, ah -
Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.
Lena Dirscherl: “I only like women because, because it's cool to like women, it's cool to be a lesbian,” then you are, no, you're not doing it to be cool [both laugh]. Trust me. Probably 10 years later I learned about the term pansexuality and at first I didn't get what it meant. The explanation was like, yeah, “You can fall in love with people regardless of their gender or like all genders.” And I'm like, “Yeah, but men and women, are there even more genders? Like, what, what's going on? I don't understand it.” And so there, there was a process there, let's put it that way.
I identified as a bisexual, as a teenager. I think I still was pretty sexist myself without realizing it. Well, I never identified with feminine things and norms and being a girl. And I really hate the word woman for myself. Like when people call me, a woman [blah] never felt right. So, “tomboy” was actually something that I resonated most with, because I didn't have any other terms, so -
Chris Angel Murphy: Same.
Lena Dirscherl: I felt like I was a tomboy, but that also meant for me to, like, distance myself from other girls or feminine stuff. So I would say things like, “I'm not like the other girls,” or, “I don't like girly girls,” blah, blah blah. All that sexist stuff. Awful, # canceled [both laugh].
[00:36:31] Chris Angel Murphy: I did it too.
[00:36:33] Lena Dirscherl: It's so sad that you feel that way, that you have to like, in order to be yourself, you think you have to put women and girly girls down and like create that hierarchy. It's really sad, but well, it's part of our sexist society, so -
Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.
Lena Dirscherl: No surprise there actually. Later when I started studying, we had one - I studied like illustration and photography - and we had one assignment that was about gender inclusive language. At first I was like, “Uh, do we need that?”
Like in German, our language is much more gendered than the English language. So we have, for example, when it comes to jobs, you're not a designer. You have like a word for a male designer and a female designer that goes with all jobs, for example. And we have like a word for female student as well. And I was like, “Ah, I don't need that. I identify like with a male board of students, so we don't need to use both and we don't need gender inclusive language and blah, blah, blah.”
But while we had this assignment, I was like thinking more and more about it and I was really interested in it. And it started my journey into feminism, basically [laughs] And I think a year later I already was at a different point and I'm now, years later, again, am at a very, very different point from back then.
But yeah, that was like my start with feminism and back then I still thought that I was female, so I tried to use gendered language for myself to make myself more visible in the language. And now I'm like, I'm at the point where I'm like, “Damn, I don't know how to refer to myself when it comes, for example, when I tell people I'm an illustrator: do you use the male term or the female term?” Because there isn't a nonbinary term. And then you're like, “If I use the male term, It's like I'm erasing femininity from our language, but if I use the female term, I'm gendering myself as a woman.” And it's like, I don’t know what to do.
Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.
Lena Dirscherl: It's, it's confusing to explain that in another language, but it's not that easy. So first I was bisexual, then I became a feminist. Later, I learned the term pansexuality.
And then I became vegan actually. And it doesn't really have to do with anything else, except that back then I was like watching a lot of documentaries and they weren't connected. Like it was just random documentaries.
Meat is bad, like, It's bad for our environment, global warming. It's bad when it comes to world hunger and everything. It's bad for the animals themselves. Also, it's, it's not super healthy if you eat it every day. So there were like a lot of things coming together and I was like, “Hmm, maybe I should eat less meat.” I haven't been a vegetarian before that, but I decided I'm only going to eat meat on the weekend. And within two weeks I was vegan basically.
It was very easy for me, so I didn't miss anything. I never was a huge fan of cheese. Because a lot of people tell me they couldn't go vegan because they would miss cheese, and I was like, “I never liked cheese.”[both laugh] So it was easy for me.
[00:39:57] Chris Angel Murphy: Mm-hmm. Cheese doesn't like me, so [both laugh] I'm just going to say that: doesn't like me.
[00:40:06] Lena Dirscherl: I have tried some very good vegan cheese, but like the good stuff is so expensive.
Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.
Lena Dirscherl: I also realize that a bunch of individuals choosing to be vegan isn't going to solve the problem because it's like a political problem. And it's like the industry itself and capitalism and everything. Politicians have to change laws so that we can combat climate change and animal cruelty and all that stuff. I don't think that it will work from the ground up, like people becoming vegan, and then everything changes. I think it has to be the other way around, but at the same time, I'm not judging anyone who's still eating meat.
[00:40:52] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah, corporations and celebrities are going to put a bigger dent than we ever could because if they stop having their private planes and they stop polluting our environment, you know, with mass production of things we probably don't need, et cetera, like, yeah, we can be vegan, but -
Lena Dirscherl: Exactly.
Chris Angel Murphy: At the end of the day, it really comes back to - and I am explicitly saying celebrities and billionaires and the corporations - they're all involved in that.
Lena Dirscherl: Yes.
Chris Angel Murphy: But I, I just had to ask you about that cause I just feel like there's like gateway identities that lead you to questioning yourself more. And I feel like being vegan, being a feminist, being queer: I feel like all of those come as like this package that you end up exploring throughout your life [laughs]. Like if you're one that you're, you may end up being more.
[00:41:43] Lena Dirscherl: [laughs] Yeah, now that you mentioned all that I feel like a stereotype [Chris Angel laughs]. The only thing that is missing is that I'm not dying my hair blue
Chris Angel Murphy: Or blonde.
Lena Dirscherl: But I would like to. So at some point I probably will. Yeah. Blonde, blue, green, something like that [laughs].
[00:41:57] Chris Angel Murphy: Purple. I wanna do purple. Like a light purple, like a pastel kind of purple.
Lena Dirscherl: Ooh. Oh yeah.
Chris Angel Murphy: I'm like the upkeep of that - and that's so expensive. I'm a broke queer, so like [laughs] that's not, that's not happening.
[00:42:10] Lena Dirscherl: Same. Yeah, I might go gray very soon because my mom, I think when she was 30, she was already gray. I have a little bit more time, but I'm already getting gray hairs everywhere, so I feel like I should start dyeing my hair after I've gone gray, and then just have fun with all the colors. And right now, I should just be happy with the hair color I have, like with my natural one because it will go away at some point and I might miss it. So yeah, I'm keeping it for now.
[00:42:42] Chris Angel Murphy: I don't know if there's like a gender neutral version of silver fox, but that's what I aspire to be.
Lena Dirscherl: Mm mm-hmm.
Chris Angel Murphy: Anderson Cooper or something. If I could just look like that. But I'm definitely going gray. Now I'm actually excited, like you said, if it's a way to more cheaply dye my hair and stuff, I'm in [both laugh] but also I just, I think I'm gonna rock it so yeah. Gosh.
Lena Dirscherl: I love that.
Chris Angel Murphy: Well, speaking of stereotypes, like any group, artists have stereotypes. Are there any that apply to you as an artist?
[00:43:17] Lena Dirscherl: I mean, a lot of artists are queer, so that's already a stereotype. I think the point is a lot of artists are openly queer, but I think they're openly queer because it's okay within this field to be queer. It's accepted. While in other fields it's just not okay to be queer, openly. So of course you see a lot of queer artists because they can express themselves freely without having to fear for their jobs.
[00:43:51] Chris Angel Murphy: Your Instagram has changed dramatically since you first started posting in October of 2013. Do you remember what your first post was? Off the top of your head. I know what it is, but do you remember?
[00:44:04] Lena Dirscherl: Oh, no. Wait, wait, wait. 2013. Oh God no. That's so long ago. Was it a picture of my desk?
[00:44:12] Chris Angel Murphy: [both laugh] Yeah. Yes. It, okay, it cracked me up. Okay. Because your first post, I think it was October 2nd, 2013.
Lena Dirscherl: Oh my God.
Chris Angel Murphy: The first one was, yeah, your messy desk. That's what you said. I don't really know what I'm looking at cuz there was just so much art stuff everywhere
Lena Dirscherl: Because it was so messy.
Chris Angel Murphy: It seemed like, well, it seemed like organized chaos to me.
Lena Dirscherl: Thank you.
Chris Angel Murphy: But to you it was messy. So literally the next day, October 3rd, you posted a picture of everything more tidied up [both laugh] and I just, I don’t know, I don’t know why that got me, but I loved that those were your first two posts. It just brought me so much joy, I can't even explain to you, but - you know, we've been on a whole journey here - but I really want to make sure to highlight, you know, and talk about, your art. Because, I mean, first off, I'm obsessed with it in the healthiest way possible.
Lena Dirscherl: Aww.
Chris Angel Murphy: Because, yeah. I love what you're doing. I love your messaging. I love the spotlights that you put on different communities, like the intersex community or talking about things like body positivity. And so I'm curious about what - cause you were on a podcast, your first one ever, The Body Story Podcast, you talked about how one way you explored art was through seasons. You would work on a project for like a season, like three months, and then see if you still wanted to like pursue that. And so, you know, you've been changing things up.
So I'm curious about what we might see from you in 2023 and anything else you want us to know about your art.
[00:45:49] Lena Dirscherl: Some weeks ago, a few weeks ago, I started a new body positive series, especially for trans people, and I'm including like trans men, trans women, nonbinary people, and agender people in there.
Behind the scenes, I've been working with several peoples of different identities and, like, talking to them, what's important for them, like, what messages they want to hear or want to share with the world, and also like what I have to be mindful about so I don't make any mistakes. And I have a long, long, long, long list of positive messages I want to put out.
And when I finished the list and looked at it, I was like “Damn, I'm going to be doing this at least the next two years [both laugh] maybe even longer.” So, so much to talking about seasons. It's not seasons anymore, it's like years now.
[00:46:45] Chris Angel Murphy: And that actually echoes what you were talking about in that podcast episode, because you were saying that you could just go on forever. Like at first you were worried you wouldn't have enough content. Like, “Well, hasn't everything already been said, et cetera. What could I possibly bring to this space?”
But it makes my heart happy to hear that you are not lacking in the inspiration department [Lena laughs], that there's going to be a lot [laughs] of great art that we'll be seeing from you.
Lena Dirscherl: Ah, thanks.
Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah, that's awesome. What's one allyship tip you'd like for everyone listening to consider?
[00:47:21] Lena Dirscherl: Prepare yourself to stand up for others when they are not around. Cause this is like the most important part: when we are not here to like speak for ourselves, to fight for ourselves. When you are in a room with people who think “we are like the in-group and we can talk shit about others,” that's the moment where you have to step in and say, “Well actually that's not cool because of this and this and this.”
And the thing is, I know it's hard. Like I've been in a situation, or like in several situations, where I'm like, “Okay, I need to say something now. This is going to be awkward, but I have to.” And my tip will be that maybe if you, if you think you won't be able to do that, like if you think that you won't find the right words in that situation, then you can practice it beforehand by, for example, role-playing with a friend. Like role play situations, think about what you're going to say, and then when the time comes, do it. Stand up for people when they're not around. This is the most important thing.
[00:48:34] Chris Angel Murphy: I told y'all: we get into it. I'm curious what you think about what we've shared.
Here's the final three self-reflection questions.
4. If I'm trans, what's my definition of trans? How do I think it'll change in the future?
5. Do I think that girl /boy and man/woman are two separate genders?
6. What's something I still want to explore specific to gender or sexuality?
I can't express enough how excited I am to have Lena coming back for a part two. It also felt good to talk more about being neuroqueer, how I've been experiencing it, and giving my thoughts on what trans means to me and why it's feeling crunchy lately.
It's possible that, for those of you who are trans, you may disagree with me or maybe something resonated for you. I absolutely encourage you to reach out because this is something I'm still working through and I don't have all the answers. But it's nice to feel comfortable enough to have these conversations with other people and just, yeah, explore what's possible.
I really do agree with Lena that trans is going to change and maybe there's gonna be a new term, or maybe it's more of a societal change where like they said, we can just claim who we are and not have to really get into it, because people will have access to the information, and there will be more resources, and it'll be more normalized, and taught in schools, and all of that fun stuff.
And just like with all of my guests, I really appreciate their allyship tips because it's interesting to hear the why they chose that tip and how they can differ even slightly from person to person. And again, recognizing that not everyone's gonna feel honored or seen or validated by all of these tips, but rather, it's an opportunity to have another tool to explore with people and find what feels good.
Oh gosh, now I'm like quoting Yoga with Adrian. Shout out to anyone else who loves her videos on YouTube.
All that to say, part of what I appreciate about this tip is that it's something I really appreciate. I know that when I've worked in more formal nine to five situations that when I've overheard people that, they didn't know I was around, correcting other people on my pronouns or what's appropriate or not to ask me and things like that, it's felt really good because they had no way of knowing that I was standing there and I wasn't trying to eavesdrop, but rather maybe I walked into a conversation or something like that. And I have to say, yeah, it feels, it feels really good. So just wanted to give a +1 to that.
Anyhoo, now I'm just sort of rambling. So I wanna quickly let y'all know, really, really exciting news: I've launched allyship as a verb merch. And what's great is even if someone doesn't listen, they can still rock it if it's a message that they can get behind. So I'm gonna have the link in the episode notes and on the episode page. So please do check it out and all of the proceeds from that go toward helping me to maintain this podcast. So thank you so much for your support.
Also, just like I did in the first season, I'm gonna take some time off in December to practice some self-care, wind down a little bit, recharge. Hopefully it'll give you a chance to listen to some previous episodes if you're behind or anything like that. There are gonna be a couple of bonus episodes that will be coming out at some point, but otherwise we're gonna resume the regular episodes starting in January.
So mark your calendar for January 3rd, 2023, because that's when the next episode will drop. Until next time, please take care, have a good rest of the year, and I will see you in the New Year.
Visit AllyshipIsAVerb.com for any resources and a full transcript of the episode. And remember, sometimes allyship means to prepare yourself to stand up for others when they are not around.