Leo Yockey
Are you seeking out different voices? In this week’s episode, Leo Yockey (he/him) shares how his first tech job denied him the opportunity to control his own narrative. Learn what surprised him about the experience and hear how it shaped the man he is today. We also discuss the "I'm not gay hug." Are you a fan of Tan France from Queer Eye? Leo talks about how reading Tan's memoir was the inverse of his experience, though it helped him find a man to model himself after. Explicit rating for some mild language throughout. You can listen to a clip here.
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💻 Sources and resources from this episode:
Leo’s Instagram post on being shirtless
Leo’s blog post on his tech experience
Full Transcript
Chris Angel Murphy 0:17
Don't touch that dial. You are now listening to Allyship is a Verb, an LGBTQ+ educational podcast. I am your host, Chris Angel, and my pronouns are they/them.
Leo Yockey 0:38
Hello, my name is Leo Yockey and my pronouns are he/him.
Chris Angel Murphy 0:42
Well, you and I met by way of a mutual friend, Jacob. Hello, Jacob, if you're listening [laughs]. Who was basically like, "Hey, you both have a podcast. You both are looking for new guests. Now, kiss." Minus the kiss thing, because hopefully, you know the meme. I digress [laughs]. So, Leo and I met via video and instantly clicked. Leo is an awesome, goofy human. He's in the tech world these days working as a software engineer, also has an interesting and varied work background. He's begun dabbling in comedy, as we will talk about in a bit, and has his own podcast, of which he interviewed me on, too. There's something special about a connection when you feel instantly seen by someone, which is how I felt when we first got to chatting well before the podcast. I'll be linking to his podcast, so please give it a listen to support his work. But for now, our conversation.
Chris Angel Murphy 1:36
You identify as transgender, biracial, and a Tanzanian American. Can you briefly share what those mean to you?
Leo Yockey 1:47
Yeah, definitely. I'll work backwards a little bit. So, Tanzanian American, my-my dad is from Tanzania. I am a first generation American on his side of the family. And, you know, all of this really comes back to representation. If there's anything that the black community I think has been trying to get across a lot lately, it's that being Black isn't a monolith. And there's so many different representations of blackness. And in my particular experience, being from Tanzania, I just don't meet a lot of other people with connections to that country. Most of the people that I know, who have been in Tanzania have been white people being on some sort of mission to like, save starving children
Chris Angel Murphy 2:32
Oh, no.
Leo Yockey 2:33
or shit like that. Yeah, exactly [both laugh]. So and part of the reason why, you know, it all still goes back to colonialism, it comes back to white supremacy, because in a lot of the former colonies throughout the world, in some of these, you know, "developing countries" and stuff like that. The colonizing powers that be, you know, the US, Britain, all of that- they kind of have their golden child countries that they, in turn to this day, have still invested a lot of resources, capital, military bases, like all that kind of stuff. And in East Africa, which is the region where Tanzania is, that golden child country happened to be Kenya. And you know, this is no sleight against Kenya, nothing against Kenya, it's just that this is why oftentimes, when you hear about people talking about East Africa, or being familiar with East Africa, or having connections to East Africa, you're gonna hear about Kenya more than you're gonna hear about Tanzania or Uganda. I've never met anybody from Uganda. But all these three countries border each other prior to colonization, and the, you know, European powers, drawing up borders and stuff like that.
Leo Yockey 3:46
It's similar to what we did see indigenous people here, right? You know, their indigenous nations, whose land was divided between the US and Canada border. And so, similar things were done to the indigenous people, to my people in East Africa. So I think it's really important to show that I'm here, you know, what I mean? That we exist and, you know, even just by putting the Tanzanian flag in my bio on social media profiles, I've had people find me because again, there's just there's not a lot of us and whatever I can do to just like, literally raise that flag [both laugh]. I almost feel like it's my duty to do.
Leo Yockey 4:21
And being biracial. Again, you know, being Black isn't a monolith. And I sit at a lot of different intersections when it comes to privilege because I have my colonized dad on the one side who has been on the brunt end of a lot of the systems of white supremacy both here and overseas. But I also have my mom who's white and our family on that side, have experienced a lot of the benefits of white supremacy and I see how that privilege plays out in my own life. I am always black, I will never not be black, but at the same time, there were certain privileges that shielded me from some of the worst of what systemic racism has to offer. And I think that it's important to bring that context, I think that it's important to be able to talk about like, "Hey, I am, I am simultaneously a victim of white supremacy and also grappling with the perpetrators of white supremacy in my own family." I think that that added context has given me perspective, not unlike what I what I deal with even being transgender. Nice segue there, right? [both laugh]
Leo Yockey 5:36
So being transgender, I think about this all the time. Like, at the time of recording this right now, just yesterday, I had a TikTok that kind of went off for the first time or what like, I don't know what it constitutes as going viral, but it feels viral for my relatively small platform [Chris Angel laughs]. And it's-it's a video about a situation that we experience in the trans community, specifically how a lot of times us trans masculine people feel the need to like "butch up" in public spaces for like safety reasons, especially in men's restrooms. That's just getting 1,000s and 1,000s of views at this point. And I'm thinking about how, when I was a kid- when I was a teenager, we just didn't have that perspective. We didn't have that visibility, that representation to be able to identify ourselves properly. And for me, I always felt like there was something wrong with me. I always felt like something was off. And the more that I identify with this greater community, the more that I understand, there isn't anything wrong with me, I just am who I am. And I'm part of this community, I'm part of this history, this-this legacy, this ancestry even.
Leo Yockey 6:46
You know, so I came out, I was in, you know, my- my formative years were in the, you know, early to mid 2000s. And I came out initially as a lesbian, because that was all that I knew. I knew from a young age that I that I wanted to be a boy that I identify more as a boy than a girl. But at the time, no, it was not clear that that was an option. Slowly but surely, it went from coming out as a lesbian at 13 to eventually, finally, when I was 25, coming out as transgender. And at the same time, I, like, got into the tech industry right away. So I went from, you know, kind of being this butch lesbian, to transitioning and presenting as a man. And also being in a very male-dominated industry, I'm seeing almost immediately, like, the effects of male privilege. I'm getting to see this kind of different perspective from having lived experience in both of the constructed gender binaries in our society.
Leo Yockey 7:46
So, I think that in all of these cases, again, just these kinds of representation, were not things that were common growing up. I didn't meet people who are from Tanzania. You know, out of all these three, there's probably the best representation for biracial people, you know, I mean, like, we have Obama for Christ's sake [both laugh]. But, you know, there wasn't a lot of stories, and you know, like real- yeah, I guess, I guess there just wasn't a lot of tangible representation. Because at the end of the day, it's like, "okay, cool, the President's biracial, but what does that actually mean to an [Leo laughs] average person like me?" Like, I'm not going to be president, come on? [both laugh] Like, what about average, people just going about their day, just try to go to work and school and dealing with racist people and dealing with black people who don't trust white people? And what does that mean for me and my family? And will this person even want to meet my mom? Like, all that kind of stuff. Like, I didn't get that kind of representation. There was obviously not any trans representation 10-15 years ago compared to now. So I think that because again, of those privileges that I do have, I think that it's my responsibility to be that representation and to make that available for the next generation or even our current generation, because we have this opportunity here. I feel like we got to take it. So that's my identities. Did take up like half the interview already? [both laugh]
Chris Angel Murphy 9:04
Yes, no- that was a great nutshell. It's really great and I'm trying to figure out where to go next, because you touched on a few of the things that I'm going to be asking you, but, so I guess we'll start here. You recently posted a photo of yourself smiling and shirtless at Runyon. And for those of you listening, not familiar, it's one of those Los Angeles hot spots where people run around shirtless usually [Leo laughs]. To workout, so you fit right in.
Leo Yockey 9:29
Yes.
Chris Angel Murphy 9:30
Or they pretend for the 'gram at least, which I don't think you were. [both laugh]
Leo Yockey 9:33
No.
Chris Angel Murphy 9:33
Yeah, I don't think you're pretending for the 'gram. But in the post you wrote, "I also got to express some trans boy joy by hiking shirtless. There was something spiritual about being able to simultaneously celebrate and trust my body in an unfamiliar situation." There's been a few posts of you shirtless in various parts of LA [both laugh] throughout your-your Instagram account, hashtag, like, shirtless in LA. But, what was it like for you the first time you went shirtless outside?
Leo Yockey 10:03
Yeah, it's funny. Two-two the three times that I've been, like, shirtless out and about in LA, it's been with my friend Aaron. So shout out to Aaron, [Leo laughs] if you're listening to this. I think that that's significant, though, because Aaron is one of my closest and oldest friends. So there was that like, comfort and safety that came with having someone that- that basically feels like family to me there. You know, it felt safer to do. The first time that I was shirtless in public, we had just kind of been hanging out that day, he lives out of town. So he had been visiting me and we went to, I don't remember why, but we ended up at the Santa Monica beach. And we're just kind of hanging around like walking, you know, petting dogs that would let us pet them [both laugh]. And at one point, there's some like workout equipment in that area, kind of in between, like Santa Monica Beach and Venice. And so we're kind of, you know, Aaron's, like climbing ropes and stuff like that and I'm taking pictures of him. And then I'm like, "Okay, take a picture of me shirtless. And like with, like, the pier in the background with, like, the roller coaster and the Ferris wheel and all that." And I took the pictures. And then I was like, "You know what? I'm gonna keep my shirt off for a little bit, I'm going to see how this goes."
Leo Yockey 11:14
And at first, I mean, I don't know how much of this is like the fear of people noticing my scars, recognizing them, and being afraid of like transphobic attacks. And how much of it is like, still shedding the learned condition of being raised as a woman and being shirtless literally being illegal, which is utter bullshit, but whatever. That's that's a whole other story for a whole other day, and probably a whole different guest [Leo laughs]. But either way, it just felt like, it definitely felt like an act of rebellion in a way, you know? And more eloquent activists than me have said, you know, "existence is resistance." And it really felt like, even if people- I think some people did, like double-take and stuff like that, but it wasn't like anyone was like, "Hey, what are you doing? Get him!" You know [Leo laughs]? There was there was never anything like that. And it was something that at that point, I think I was about a year or so post-op from top surgery. And before that, like I could barely walk, like, 10 feet outside my front door to take out the trash shirtless. So it was like, I picture it almost like a video game where, like, you're doing something that, like, helps you, like gain like strength or health or something like that. Like, I felt like with each second that I had, like, my shirt off, I was, like, gaining more and more and more like, confidence and self assurance. And by the end, I was just like, I almost wanna shout it from the rooftops. I think I did. Like, I told his wife, like, once we reunited with her. I was like, "I was shirtless. And I did all that. [Chris Angel laughs] I was shirtless for like 20 minutes, and like, nothing happened and blah, blah, blah."
Leo Yockey 12:53
And an interesting thing that I've realized since then, is there's also a lot of cisgender men, that for a myriad of reasons, don't feel comfortable being shirtless in public. I went to the beach a separate time and I remember noticing that almost every single man or every single, you know, masculine presenting person at the beach had a shirt on, including the ones that were going into the water. Some people feel uncomfortable about, you know, their skin. Some people might have a skin type where it's not safe to be shirtless. Like, their weight. There's all these different reasons, it made it that much more affirming, like, this is an act of self love to be able to do this, because we don't talk about it as much on the masculine side, but there is still this like expectation of your body needs to look a certain way. And if it doesn't, that's not okay. And again, just being who I am and being able to be okay with myself, I think and hope, would give other people, like, more permission to- to also do their thing because it is- it was true. I mean, I felt like I was like skydiving or something it was so [Leo laughs], it was so exhilarating. Because the whole time it's like, "Is something gonna happen? Oh my god, nothing's happening. Am I gonna die? Oh, my God, I haven't died," [Leo laughs] you know?
Chris Angel Murphy 14:08
When you think about being a man, what kind of man do you want to be? And what kind of future do you see for yourself?
Leo Yockey 14:17
That's an interesting question, because that's something that I think kind of changes almost every day. And I think it- that in hindsight is something that was probably the biggest downside, if you could call it a downside, to the way that my transition happened, because it happened very quickly. So I went from, I said I came out of 25. So, put it into a little bit more context. In August or September of that year, I got into a relationship for the first time in like a year. And it became very clear to me very quickly, like just how bad my dysphoria was, you know? Because all of a sudden, I'm sexually active again, and someone's calling me like pretty and their girlfriend and all these things. And it's, like, all these things I haven't had to think about. It's very easy, I think, not to think about your body and your gender when you're single versus being in a relationship. So all of a sudden, around September, I'm like, "I can't handle this anymore. Like, this is really upsetting to me in ways that I almost feel like I can't describe or articulate or identify." And then by October, I had my appointment with like a gender therapist to have the assessment to get approved for testosterone. And by November, I'm coming out as transgender to most of my friends and family. I think by the end of the month, I posted it publicly on social media. Early December, I'm taking my first shot of T. So that's, you know, less than three months from, "I think this might be what's going on," to starting hormones.
Leo Yockey 15:52
Which for those of you who are unfamiliar with that process, I mean, there's people who go years between knowing that they're trans and being able to take hormones. So again, this falls back to- to the privilege that I know that I have, because all of that came from the access to health care that I had. And you know, the fact that my mom and my dad had good, stable careers with good health care. And you know, thanks to the Affordable Care Act at 25, I'm still eligible to be under their insurance. And it actually made my hormones free. I have to pay a little bit for them now, but at the time, because I was going into their office and getting injected by a nurse, it was considered like a nurse's visit that had no copay. It's just unbelievable that I had that opportunity.
Leo Yockey 16:40
But- but at the same time, I was starting my new career in tech. I had a lot of other personal changes going on. That relationship ended up not working out and I moved from my hometown of Lancaster, California, down to L.A. proper near Santa Monica, where I was working. And I get thrown into this-I mean, for for those of y'all who are unfamiliar with the tech industry, it's- it can be very toxic and I worked in an office a kind of resembled a frat house, [Leo laughs] you know? I mean, we're- we're going out to drink all the time and my boss says things about, like, basically implying that the only way to like get ahead is to go out and drink with them all the time. And I'm living in L.A. by myself, for the first time ever. I have very expensive rent, I, you know, this is a brand new career I want to do well in.
Leo Yockey 17:29
I was thinking less about the man that I wanted to be and more about, what do I need to continue to do to fit in? Because assimilating and doing what I need to do to fit in and kind of disregarding my own identity and my own truth for, I guess, the benefit of the powers that be, for want of a better term. Like, that was- that was what was taught to me. And that was how I understood how to navigate the world. And it took about a year into that job of realizing like, I have a really bad stress-induced illness. Like, my stomach was just completely on the fritz, my digestive system. At one point, I lost like 30 pounds in a month, like I was barely eating, like, it was really bad.
Leo Yockey 18:15
And I realized, it's like, I'm not the person that I want to be. Like, I'm happy with the changes that I've made so far with my body. But the changes on the inside, I'm not happy with it all. Because again, now I'm looking at, I went from being this like, gender nonconforming woman that has to kind of keep their mouth shut to be able to survive to like, now I'm fully, you know, passing or whatever, as a man. And I need to really think about my actions and how I'm coming across to people and what I'm portraying. And also do I want to fit in, in these situations where the masculinity is really toxic? Because I realized then that even- even going through this transition, even having that perspective of living in both of the gender binaries, I still had a very limited idea myself of what masculinity was and what was okay to be and present as a man. And it took a while to really unpack all of that, and I'm still unpacking that I think, of like, really just being able to accept myself. I mean, I mentioned earlier that I talked about, you know, like "butching up" for safety reasons. I mean, there's, there's a big difference between like, kind of adjusting my walk and demeanor when I go into a men's restroom versus like, trying to fit into a social situation that at the end of the day, I don't even have to be in at all. At the end of the day, I did not have to go to the bar with my coworkers. I had another coworker that was well respected just fine that never went out with us- a male coworker. You know what I mean? Like these- these were choices that I was making, and at a certain point, I had to kind of come to terms with that.
Leo Yockey 19:59
And so now at this point, you know, I'm really readjusting, like, who my role models are, you know? Even my own dad is someone who grew up in a matriarchal society who really reveres women in leadership. So I had that great example. You know and my stepdad does a lot of like, things that don't fit into, you know, traditional masculinity too and, you know, and just, again, just looking at people that I can try to emulate and combining that with my own lived experience to kind of create my own version of masculinity.
Chris Angel Murphy 20:34
Something that happened to me, which was interesting when I, because, you know, there's medical transition, social transition, legal transition, and those are different buckets. And different things fall into those buckets, but socially, and starting medically as well, I noticed some friends I wasn't super close to, like acquaintances while I was in college, were just like, "oh, well, if you're trying to be a man, now, this is what you need to do," which they were missing it, because it wasn't my goal.
Leo Yockey 21:06
Yeah.
Chris Angel Murphy 21:07
That wasn't my goal at all. I was never telling anyone that I wanted to be a man, because at that time I was identifying as genderqueer, but now I've landed on nonbinary, and trans, and queer. So. But yeah, at that time, a lot of people felt like they had to take me under their wing or something and be like, "Well, you're a man now. So you got to do this and that and the other." And like-
Leo Yockey 21:26
Yeah.
Chris Angel Murphy 21:26
What? Like, have you had those moments with anyone?
Leo Yockey 21:30
I haven't had those kinds of moments explicitly, I would say. But, um, I have had the weird experiences where people started to treat me different because of my gender expression. I have one friend in particular that I'm- that I'm thinking of right now that I've known. I'd known for probably about five years prior to transitioning and in greeting, or in parting ways, you know, we used to, like, hug each other. And then the first time he saw me after I started to pass, and he didn't really see me in that in between- between where I was starting to come out before my medical transition. So, you know, the last time he had seen me, I was still going by my old name, she/her pronouns and all that. And all of a sudden, my voice is deep and, you know, I'm going by he/him pronouns, and the whole nine yards. And he, like, didn't want to hug me, he felt weird about it, because he doesn't hug other men. And so it was the simultaneously like, "Thank you, but also, what the hell is wrong with you?" [Leo laughs] Like, you know what I mean? Like, I guess it's good that you're treating me the same way that you would treat any other man, because that means that you respect my gender identity. But at the same time, this is weird, man. Like we've literally hugged in the past. And also why are you this bothered by hugging your male friends? Like, why is everyone's masculinity so damn fragile? Like, it's just it's so weird to me.
Leo Yockey 22:58
I think for me, what I experienced more was, like, realizing that there really were things that I couldn't do or say anymore. It wasn't like "oh, because you're a man you got to act like x ,y & z." It's more like, "Oh, now that I'm, like, being perceived out in public as this like hetero-normative male, maybe I don't make that lesbian joke anymore." That seems like perfectly fine for me to say when I was just butch lesbian, you know what I mean? Like just little silly stuff, like the U-haul type jokes and stuff like that. But out in public, where people don't necessarily know, it comes across as, like, really poor taste. And I think that, again, is where like, that responsibility comes in of like, even though I'm still dealing with my own pain and trauma from the patriarchy and stuff like that, still understanding that I'm, in some people's eyes, now a representation of that. I need to handle that accordingly and not willingly do more harm to other people, you know?
Chris Angel Murphy 23:53
I've definitely had moments where, usually if I meet a guy, we'll handshake. Every now and then, I'd say for the most part, it's mostly been men who have been fine hugging, but it's the quote unquote, "I'm not gay hug."
Leo Yockey 24:07
Yeah
Chris Angel Murphy 24:08
Where-right? Yeah, you're- you're nodding your head, you already know. [Leo laughs] So, it's like, could you describe that for folks? And is it something that you've been experiencing at all?
Leo Yockey 24:17
Oh, 100%. I experience it all the time. I mean, there's- there's certainly, you know, it's- it's like, of course, there are some men out there that aren't like this. But yeah, more often than not, it's- it's one of two things. It's either the, you know, it kind of starts as a handshake. So you have like your, your hands on the one and then you kind of bring the other arm around for the hug. And in that case, you can kind of do whatever because you have the hand-
Chris Angel Murphy 24:44
Right? The hands are like a barrier, right? You're not chest-to-chest, because you're still like hand-to-hand so like, it's okay to have the pat.
Leo Yockey 24:52
Exactly. There's a barrier. We've left room for Jesus, we're good to go [both hug]. But then with the two-arm hug, Yeah. It's like very just like pat-pat. Like, very quick. Like, we're not trying to be here for very long.
Chris Angel Murphy 25:07
But like, hard, too. Like, and it's usually three. I think we like- we're a culture likes to do things in threes. Yeah. But it's like, usually kind of hard too, [Leo laughs] and I'm like, "Am I just too sensitive? Or are you just like, extra? Like, I'm not gay, like doing the pat," you know?
Leo Yockey 25:21
Like, we have to show that we're tough. We're hugging, but in a tough, manly way. [Chris Angel laughs]
Chris Angel Murphy 25:28
Yeah, I'm just like, "oh, this just feels gross." But at the same time, recognizing if that's someone else's comfort level, I do like to touch people in a way that's, like, consensual. So in a greeting, I love doing either a fist bump, high five, a hug. You know, to someone's comfort level.
Leo Yockey 25:46
Yeah, same.
Chris Angel Murphy 25:47
But like, that is the only thing. That's the only, like, one so far that I'm- I'm not really comfortable with at all, because it just feels gross. And feels weird for me at the end of it, because of all the, like, toxic masculinity wrapped in it. So yeah, that's been hard.
Leo Yockey 26:06
Yeah. And there's layers to it, right? Like, there's the there's the layer of, "oh, I'm not gay. I gotta show you that I'm tough and I'm not gay." And it's also like, "oh, I have to treat you rougher in- as opposed to the delicacy." You know, like, like, "I'm treating a woman gently, because she's a delicate, little flower." You know what I mean? Like, there's this weird like, understanding sometimes I think amongst toxic men, that women need to be treated with some sort of like, care, which again, you know, it-because what you're saying implicitly is like, "Oh, you're not strong like us. You wouldn't be able to handle this manly man hug. Like, I can't do that to you, that would be abuse." [Chris Angel laughs] Yeah, it's like, there's just there's so many layers to why- why that's bothersome. I don't really like those hugs, either. And like, just, like, actually hug me or just don't. Like, we can just shake hands. Like, it's really [Leo laughs] not that serious.
Chris Angel Murphy 27:07
Yeah, or I think, especially at my first tech job, there was the awkwardness of, I don't what handshake we're gonna do, you know?
Leo Yockey 27:16
Yeah.
Chris Angel Murphy 27:17
And it made it really confusing for me, and then having to like, adjust accordingly, very quickly, based on their- their body language. Yeah, what a wild time. So, I mean, let's go into the work stuff. You wrote a blog post for your website and what you shared about your experience with your first tech job and medical transition. It became incredibly complex and layered, because starting a new industry is tough. Going through a second puberty, different from the first round, is also challenging. But on top of all that, HR for your new place of employment at that time, also went against your wishes and told everyone before you started that you were trans. Of which, they had no right to do. And you recognized that you were the only black guy there. So the phrase holy vulnerability batman comes to mind [both laugh]. So, everything you shared in the post I was reeling from, because any one of those things on their own would have been enough to go through, but you got hit with all of it. And one of the things you touched on specifically a few times throughout that post, was how important it was for you to feel in control of your narrative. So I'm wondering, can you share more about that?
Leo Yockey 28:27
Yeah, definitely. So- so first of all, to clarify, in the like, 1% chance that any of them listen to this, I was the only black guy in the Engineering department. So, we had a black guy that was like in IT, like did all our IT stuff, like our emails and all that. And there was another black guy in the sales department.
Chris Angel Murphy 28:46
Still tokenized to a degree there, right? Still not a lot of [Chris Angel laughs] yeah-
Leo Yockey 28:50
Yeah. Oh, yeah. This is an office of maybe 70 people, by the end, something like that. Vast majority of which were in the Engineering department. So yeah, I mean, but just just in case any of them listen, I'm like, I don't wanna- [Leo laughs]
Chris Angel Murphy 29:03
It's totally important. Not- not the only one in 70, but-
Leo Yockey 29:08
Close enough. Yeah. I mean, there's a few reasons why I want to control the narrative there. And the biggest one was, I have no idea how anybody's going to react to me being trans. And with this being a brand new career, I don't want that to be a factor in whether or not like- it's going to be stressful enough. It is stressful enough dealing with "am I doing a good job? Am I doing the right thing? Am I gonna just get fired because I'm messing up?" You know, imposter syndrome is real. These are things that anyone from any demographic is going to face. So then also having that added layer of are people going to like, try to kick me out of the men's room when I go to the bathroom? Like, for those first few weeks that I worked there, I basically, like, would really limit my water intake so I wasn't going to the bathroom at all.
Chris Angel Murphy 29:58
Dehydration is a big issue in the transgender community that isn't talked about enough and can have serious consequences on our health. I've spent most of my life dehydrating myself to avoid having to use the restroom in public, because it was a matter of my physical safety and it's actually still an issue for me present day. Gender neutral restrooms weren't as common as they are now when I first started my transition. Though, there's still a lot of work to do there. I can tell you all sorts of stories, but in the interest of time, just know that it can be a scary experience for transgender people because of potential harm, including physical. Whether or not someone may "pass" in a gendered restroom, of which passing is a loaded concept, can be anxiety producing. Will someone misgendered me? Be rude? Stare me down? Have security escort me out? Assault me? I've planned whole days around bathrooms. I've literally had people place bets with friends and hang around to see which bathroom I was going to use. I've also had to go well out of my way to somewhere discreet, which can be even more scary, because if someone knows me and stakes me out, I'm a perfect target for harm.
Chris Angel Murphy 31:17
That's why I want to briefly advocate for gender neutral restrooms in a place of work. If your workplace doesn't have one, this is a great way to practice allyship. And it's not just for transgender people or the LGBTQ+ community overall. There's lots of reasons someone may need a gender neutral restroom. For example, those who require caregivers and the caregiver is of another gender. ADA- Americans with Disabilities Act compliant bathrooms, making them more accessible to people with hand bars or larger stalls. Or parents who have a child of another gender and may also need access to diaper stations, of which isn't always in the men's room. So, this is why gender neutral restrooms or family restrooms aren't just a trans issue. It's a people issue. And hopefully, now you can see why it's a great idea to advocate for them where you are. And now back to Leo.
Leo Yockey 32:18
During my work day. And that's, you know? So- so now I'm also like, having a hard time concentrating, because I'm dehydrated and stuff like that. That ability to control the narrative was taken from me. Put me in this- I think there's this perspective that a lot of people have, a lot of people with a lot of privilege have that, you know, when you- when you go to work, work is this like neutral place. And that couldn't be further from the truth. I mean, a lot of how I felt, it almost felt like I was on, like, survivor or something, you know what I mean? In one of these places where it's like, I know, I'm the outcast, I know that if we were to vote somebody out, like, it would be me. And I feel like I have to really fight to like, prove, you know, like, if you're watching, like those early episodes of Survivor, there's not a lot to go off of. So they're kind of just kicking people out that they don't like, unless that person can really like prove their keep, you know? If they're like, the one person that can catch fish, or the one person that can keep the fire going, or the one person that can, like, climb up the tree and get all the really good fruit, you know?
Leo Yockey 33:23
And so, I was in this position where I was like, "Well, let me make sure that I can be the one to like, keep the fire going or catch the fish or whatever," because my employment didn't feel like it was just a given. My status there based off my skill didn't feel like something that I could take for granted in the way that you should be able to because it's neutral. And there's these laws protecting you from getting fired just for being trans and all these different things. I mean, in the state of California where I am, I should say there are these laws protecting you, but the lived reality is so much different from those written laws, you know what I mean? And this was also- this was a company that was based- headquarters was in the UK. All of our top management from the director level up were white, predominantly men from the UK.
Leo Yockey 33:23
You know, I heard- so in addition to, you know, like being afraid of like, you know, kind of being the only black person, being the only trans person having a secret out- I'm also hearing- you know because this was during the time of like, Boris Johnson's election and- or not, was it his election? It was during Brexit election. I can't remember if he got elected at that same time or not, but I heard some, like, really horrible things being said about African immigrants in the UK from people who were, like, in favor of Brexit. And I'm like, "You're literally talking about my dad." You know what I mean? Like, and I could see so clearly, because I saw my dad's life path that like, you know, ‘cuz he could have just easily have chosen the UK over the US, as far as where to live. And you know, because Tanzania was a- was a British colony, specifically, not a French colony. And I don't know, it's just like... to see these cycles of power right in front of my face. To kind of understand that I was a part of it. To not really have any context for how I was doing in my job. I was supposed to have regular one-on-ones with my manager. Those weren't happening.
Leo Yockey 35:28
So, like, actively asking him like, "what can I do in my job? Like, am I doing the right stuff? Should I be working on something else? Like, what should I be focusing on?" He wouldn't really give me any answers to those questions. But then when it was time for, like, my annual salary review, which is just a standard procedure for everyone in the company, he had a whole list of reasons for why I didn't deserve a raise. And even after admitting all year long, that I had been underpaid, and realizing more after talking to other people within the industry, outside of the company, that I was underpaid, even for being entry level given the size and location of that- of that company. But again, you know, at the same time, I'm brand new to this company, I'm brand new to this industry. I don't feel like I can bring any of that stuff up. I basically, the underlying tone that I'm dealing with, even in talking to, like, my parents about it is like, "well, this is still more money than you've ever made, like, you should just be grateful and keep your head down and get your work done."
Leo Yockey 36:30
And I tried to do that. And I literally got so sick from that. I mean, I spent basically the entire year of 2019 very, very ill. Like, could not eat. I was, for a while, on a very restrictive diet of like tilapia and like plain rice, and bananas, and yogurt. And, like, that was all I ate for like a few months there. Because I just had these horrible flare ups, this really bad inflammation. And after all these tests and tests and tests, the doctors were like, "we don't see anything physically wrong with you, it must be stress related." And it took almost a year, I think, of being away from that job before those- those symptoms subsided completely. And at this point, I feel so grateful that those symptoms have subsided, because oh, gosh, it was so bad. And for a while I was just like, is this just my life? Like, did I just completely ruin my body for this job?
Leo Yockey 37:24
And again, it is- I am still in a position where I'm fortunate, because I was able to get out of it. And that's not everybody's reality, you know? Because through all that I was still building a network, I still had people who were looking out for me. And I was able to get out of there. And not everybody has the resources and capacity to be able to do that. You know, so it was still almost this like survivor's guilt of like, "well, now I've gotten out of it," you know? It's just- it was rough, though. You know, it was, it was really rough. And I thought the whole point of starting a new job right around this time was that I could like skip over that weird like, "Okay, now I'm going to tell my co workers what my new name and pronoun is." Like, that was supposed to be like the one benefit of like having all this change compounding at once and then it just ended up not working out that way.
Chris Angel Murphy 38:15
Tan France has a memoir out. You read it and something he touched on resonated with you. What was that?
Leo Yockey 38:24
Yeah, this feels a little bit like a quiz [both laugh]. So, I hope I answered this right. The main thing that resonated with me about Tan France's story, is that it was basically- it felt like my experience, but the inverse. So, Tan France, for those you who are unfamiliar, gosh. I hope that's no one, because he's amazing. But he's- he's the fashion person in Queer Eye. And he is-he was raised in the UK. He's from a Pakistani family and he's a gay man.
Leo Yockey 38:54
So for him growing up in the UK, in like the 80s or 90s, or whatever it was, he dealt with so much racism, that even though he kind of knew he was gay, he really brushed it aside for most of his formative years, because the terror of racism that he was dealing with was so in his face and inescapable that it was like why compound it by also being gay? And what I experienced was an inverse, because again, just kind of going back to the the shield of privilege that I do have from being half white. In my formative years, I was already- I mean, I looked like a butch lesbian before I came out as a butch lesbian, basically. [Chris Angel laughs] Like, I had my hair cut basically as short as it is now. It's been like this since I was like seven years old. I've worn my brother's hand me down clothes since I was like four or five years old.
Leo Yockey 39:48
So when I came out as a lesbian, I was already very like masculine presenting. And as a result, it was very obvious to people that I was a part of the LGBTQ community, because of that and because I came out at a kind of young age, right as gay marriage was like a very big, nationally debated issue in the political spectrum. I dealt with a lot of homophobia. I realize now as an adult, that not everything that I experienced was homophobia. Some of it was racism. Some of it had nothing to do with my sexuality. Some of it had nothing to do with my gender presentation.
Leo Yockey 40:30
However, as a child, I think it was so much easier to attribute a lot of that just to the homophobia by itself. Because I think that compound of I'm black and I'm gay and what is that going to mean for me in my place in the world would have been so much harder to cope with. I didn't really start to unpack my relationship with race and racism until after I came out as trans and started to pass. And I actually predicted that really early on, I was like, "I think that once I really start to pass, I think that my relationship with race is going to change." Like, that was a thought that came seemingly out of nowhere. But, it proved that somewhere deep down, I knew that this was happening and just didn't want to or couldn't face it.
Leo Yockey 41:13
So, when I read Tan France's story, I was like, "Oh, my God." Again, representation matters, like, because I thought that this was like, a bad thing that I had done almost to, like, ignore one part of myself or my struggle. But I realized that, you know, if he did it, and I did it, then probably a lot of us with intersecting identities do it and- and that's okay. And we deal with things as we're able to, because our brains are amazing like that. They'll shield us from things that were just, like, not ready to face. And now I'm, like, grateful that I had that experience and was able to handle things as I was able to.
Leo Yockey 41:50
And I know that this isn't, again, this is- this is coming from a place of relative privilege. Not everyone is in a position where they're able to do that. And there's a whole myriad of reasons why I was able to do that. Some of them are good, some of them are not, you know? Like, just not having a race talk from my dad was both good and bad. You know, this is kind of a product of that. I really appreciate, you know, shout- shout out to Tan France for- [Chris Angel laughs] for making that such a big part of his story. You know, Tan France- big, big listener of Allyship is a Verb, right? [both laugh] But yeah I really appreciated him, you know, sharing that in my being able to just like, relate to them. Be like, "oh, okay, like, this is just what we do."
Chris Angel Murphy 42:32
Well, I've graded your quiz and the results are in. Do you want to know?
Leo Yockey 42:35
Yes, please.
Chris Angel Murphy 42:36
What you got?
Leo Yockey 42:36
Yes.
Chris Angel Murphy 42:37
You-you passed.
Leo Yockey 42:37
Oh, thank God, okay. [both laugh]
Chris Angel Murphy 42:38
You absolutely passed. That's exactly what I was referring to. You're right, I did word that in a way that was kind of quiz-like there [Leo laughs], so you did great. And would you say that Tan's one of the people that you look up to then? When you think about like manhood or whatever that means?
Leo Yockey 42:56
Oh, 100%, because another thing that he talks about in that book is, you know, the cast of Queer Eye. You know, people see like, they're very affectionate with each other, they'll like hold hands, or like cuddle, and things like that. And most of them are like married and stuff like that. And he confronts it by being like, "women do this all the time, like, men need to like calm the hell down and start like showing affection to their guy friends." And he's very bold and unapologetic about that stance. And I've actually found that to be very inspirational, because he's right. And in other cultures, it is more likely to see, you know, male friends kiss each other on the cheek and things like that. Like, this is just part of our culture in America that men shouldn't show affection to other men. And it's like, why? Because people might think you're gay? Like, it doesn't make any sense. So I, yeah, he's absolutely someone that I look to as- as an example of what masculinity could and perhaps should look like.
Chris Angel Murphy 43:49
Part of allyship is recognizing that we make mistakes, because we're human. Is there a time you wished you had done a better job of practicing allyship? And what do you do differently now?
Leo Yockey 44:03
Yeah, I mean, a big part of it for me, I think, again, just kind of goes back to how I was acting in that job. A lot of it is around, like, my allyship towards like, women, lesbians. Because there was so much of me that thought that like, "oh, because this was part of my lived experience, it's still okay for me to joke about things or be casual or kind of be not- not in like, specifically, like, women's spaces, but like, if I'm in a group of women, so to speak, like I- not really being mindful of what my presence is bringing to that.
Leo Yockey 44:42
I remember, at one point, I was talking to someone. I wish I remember the specifics of this incident, but I remember I was talking to someone about a lesbian couple that was, like, moving in together or something like that, like really early. And I was like, "Yeah, I mean, you know, how lesbians are" and then just like, kept going along. And I realized in hindsight, like "oh my God, like, I'm not even sure this person knows that I'm trans like, this just sounded like such an asshole thing to say. Like, me just, like, generalizing about this group," even though, like, that was literally my ex- I literally was in a lesbian relationship where we moved in together, like three months in and got engaged, [Chris Angel laughs] like seven months in. I am talking about my own lived experience. I- I have done this before. And I'm joking from having been there and done that. But, without that context, it's just not really the other person's job to just, like, take the joke, [Leo laughs] you know what I mean?
Chris Angel Murphy 45:38
Right.
Leo Yockey 45:38
So, those are some of the kinds of things that like, I really just, like, work on now. And I think that's a big thing for me in general, you know, because like, I dabble in comedy a little bit. And I'm, you know, just because I think something's gonna be funny, doesn't mean that it needs to be said, you know? And so I just work on that a lot now. Just being really mindful of like, how I'm being perceived by the people around me and conducting myself accordingly.
Chris Angel Murphy 46:06
What's one allyship tip you'd like for everyone listening to consider?
Leo Yockey 46:12
Hmm, I think, just to listen more. And when I say more, I think I'm talking about like, the quantity of people that you're listening to. For example, if any of my friends are listening to this right now, and I'm the only transmasculine person that they follow or listen to, maybe- maybe it's time to change that, you know what I mean? I'm not thinking of anyone in particular, I'm just, I've actually noticed more so that in a lot of cases, I'll be like, my friend's only black friend. And I'm like, "Mmm, that's probably not great." You know, and because I'm also myself still learning so much about this. You know, and like I said earlier in the interview, like there's just so much out there. Like on social media, there's different communities that I'm not a part of, that I've started just following a lot of different people from different experiences, different walks of life.
Leo Yockey 47:05
Particularly like the indigenous communities, I'm really trying to follow and just listen and pay attention. Because there's just so much to be learned from that. And I think that the fallacy of just like following like one person is that they're still human. And they're still figuring it out themselves. So, just having that myriad of experiences. And it could just be as simple as like, following a bunch of different people on this one social media platform, or reading books, or just whatever that looks like for the individual person. Just making sure that they're getting that insight and experience from different people.
Chris Angel Murphy 47:44
I'm so grateful to Leo for sharing so much of himself in this episode. Before you go, I will leave you with some questions for self reflection or journaling based on what we discussed.
Chris Angel Murphy 47:57
Does your place of work have a gender-neutral restroom?
Have you ever had to plan your day around using the restroom?
Have there ever been bathrooms that made you feel unsafe? Why?
Do you have only one friend of a particular race or ethnicity? How come?
What are you doing to diversify your social media feeds?
Do you take the time to actively listen to people of different experiences than you?
Have you ever thought about how your presence might impact those around you?
What does manhood mean to you, even if you don’t identify as a man?
Who are your role models? Are they people you try to emulate?
Chris Angel Murphy 49:01
Visit AllyshipIsAVerb.com for any resources and a full transcript of the episode. And remember, sometimes allyship means actively seeking out more voices.