Shane Whalley
“It is hard to live in a place where every day when you turn on your TV or your radio or you look online, you’re hearing hateful untruths, right? Like, all the time.”
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This week, Shane Whalley (ze/hir) sheds light on living in Austin, Texas as an older queer and genderqueer person. In this special update episode, you will learn 1. Why ze suggests not intervening during misgendering (without consent from the person harmed) 2. How ze wishes we would proactively approach social/political change (instead of playing defense) 3. What we could say instead of calling someone "brave" or "resilient"
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Daring Dialogues | Shane’s training and consulting business
💻 Sources and resources:
Shane’s first episode
Charlie’s Pronoun and Name Mistake Flowchart
Waverships | AceDadAdvice on Instagram
Want to practice pronouncing the ze/hir pronoun set? You can hear them (and more) here https://en.pronouns.page/
Full Transcript
[00:00:00] Charlie Ocean: Well, hello there, I'm Charlie Ocean and my pronouns are they/them. Welcome to Allyship is a Verb, a podcast for people practicing allyship for the LGBTQ+ community and beyond.
[00:00:26] Shane Whalley: Hi, my name is Shane Whalley and my pronouns are ze, hir, and hirs.
[00:00:30] Charlie Ocean: Shane's episode was the inaugural episode of Allyship is a Verb. It's wild to think how much has changed since the first season, first episode. As I usually say, please go back and listen to the first one if you haven't already. However, I know some of you won't listen to me.
Hi, you know who you are.
Now, let's go to Austin, Texas, and see what Shane's up to these days. But first, thank you, Clare! (voice echoes) Clare, thank you so much for supporting the Indiegogo campaign and being a wonderful, supportive friend. I appreciate you so much.
Here are three self-reflection questions to think about during the episode. And be sure to stick around after for three more.
1. Do I like being called "brave" or "resilient"? Why or why not?
2. What keeps me motivated in life? What makes life worth living?
3. Am I my favorite version of myself?
And here we go.
Well, I am - oh my gosh, am I about to fangirl or something? I don't know, what's happening. What is this feeling? You, (Shane laughs) you kicked off my podcast.
[00:02:03] Shane Whalley: Yeah.
[00:02:03] Charlie Ocean: You were the first season, first episode, and I am so grateful for that because it ends up being one of the most listened to episodes because a lot of folks will go back and listen to that one to sort of like start the podcast in order. So yeah, thank you.
[00:02:21] Shane Whalley: Very honoring for me too. So thank you. Yeah.
[00:02:24] Charlie Ocean: When you were first on the podcast, you had shared that you're genderqueer, queer, an elder, and white. This time you've shared genderqueer, 62 years old, and out since 1994, and white. And also that you're a social justice educative facilitator and storyteller.
Is there anything you want to expand on about that?
[00:02:50] Shane Whalley: I don't think so. I don't think so. I think it's always interesting when people ask you how you identify, right. Like, I can use that language with you because I know you know what it means. If I was doing a podcast that was "how to be a social worker", (laughs) right, I might not use some of that language because people might not know what it means.
I think, you know, if we're going to use kind of current terms, maybe I code switch a little bit around my gender identity.
[00:03:19] Charlie Ocean:
(begin musical PSA to an indy/spacepop tune )
There’s macro- and micro-labels. Let’s lay them on the table.
It may be time to enable the code switch. The CoOoOoOode, the code switch. Yeah it depends on the sitch.
(end musical PSA)
[00:04:02] Shane Whalley: Right, like, I identify as genderqueer, but a lot of people don't know what that is. So I also will identify as nonbinary because more people know what that is, right. So I often will say that I identify as genderqueer, pause, (laughs) nonbinary. And I still strongly, and we talked about queer quite a bit in the first episode, right, I still strongly identify as queer.
I do check in with myself. I think we also talked about kind of my check in, in the first episode around my pronouns. I think me trying to hold firm to what resonates with me and not taking care of others is still a journey for me, right. I'm learning to hold steady for what resonates with me and then maybe do a caveat to help give people context if they don't know.
[00:04:54] Charlie Ocean: Yeah.
[00:04:54] Shane Whalley: One of the things that I've started talking a lot about is how we ask somebody what their language means, right. And the difference between asking me, "Shane, please define genderqueer" versus, "Hey Shane, what does genderqueer mean to you?" right. One turns me into a dictionary and one allows me to tell a story about myself and give context for the language I use.
And so I'm really a big fan. of both being asked and asking others what language means to them. It's not that different in sentence structure, but it's a huge difference for me on how it lands.
[00:05:36] Charlie Ocean: Absolutely. That's something that I teach in my training sessions because to your point, Usually this is coming about when someone is inviting someone in, and like - or coming out - whatever language you want to use there. And so, typically, the drive for that is because we're seeking support. Like, "I'm sharing with you that I'm nonbinary, I'm agender - whatever it is - because I'm seeking support."
And when then you ask someone like, "Oh, yeah, you know, I don't know what that means." To your point, yeah, it puts us in educator mode when that's not the mode we're in. We're in "I need support" mode, right.
Then you're not even making someone reduce it to some dictionary definition, but also making them feel like they have to speak on behalf of an entire community, which no one can do. And then awkwardly stumbling through that perhaps, and maybe even still learning what it means to them.
So yes, and in terms of what you've shared, I absolutely love the more personalized approach because I think that's what people are meaning to ask anyway.
[00:06:44] Shane Whalley: Mm-hmm.
[00:06:44] Charlie Ocean: And it also holds space for someone to share any intersectionality that may be important to them, in that.
[00:06:51] Shane Whalley: I also think, like, "what does that mean?" also might put somebody on the defensive, depending on how it's asked, versus, again, that kind of joining or inviting in.
I ask people what language means to them. Even though I know the dictionary definition, right. (laughs) Like, especially for people who identify strongly as queer, I'm always curious what it means to them. And there's usually an amazing story on how they got there, right. I'm interested in the context, not the, just - right, not the definition.
[00:07:26] Charlie Ocean: And again, if this is under the context of that person coming out, I think it's also okay, to ask them by way of support, "Do you want to talk more about that?" or "Do you want to share more about that?" All of those are more supportive questions.
Again, I think it's one of those situations where that's what people are meaning to ask, but they just don't know how to get there. I feel like it's really important that we try to get it right as much as possible and come from that place of love and curiosity; we can tell the difference. And maybe we can help redirect someone if we are in a space that we feel like we can do that.
But yeah, shifting from supporter mode to educator mode is a really hard pivot and it can hurt the relationship. So, even asking something like, "Would it be okay if we talked more about that?" or something, you know, just to help bridge that gap and make sure that person's even in that place. Maybe they're too nervous.
[00:08:24] Shane Whalley: Right, yeah, I talk about respectful curiosity.
[00:08:27] Charlie Ocean: Yeah.
[00:08:28] Shane Whalley: Right, and respectful curiosity is always consent based, right. You have space and time to answer some questions, because sometimes I have space and time, and sometimes I don't.
[00:08:38] Charlie Ocean: With where you're at in your life now, when you share about who you are with someone for the first time, because they're new to you, or, let's say, hypothetically, you may end up adopting new language in the near future, how would you want that information to be celebrated, or how would you want someone to celebrate you in that moment?
[00:09:00] Shane Whalley: You know, I think that it's a great question, because I find that sometimes this celebration doesn't land well for me, right. It feels like it's too much. I get told a lot that I'm brave.
[00:09:16] Charlie Ocean: Argh. (both laugh)
[00:09:18] Shane Whalley: Right? And I know that that is meant, right, it is meant with kind of love, but like, I am who I am and I don't have a choice about it, so I'm not being brave; I just am being. That is not my favorite thing.
I think sometimes I just like people to be appreciative for me spending time and being vulnerable. You know, sometimes a well-placed "thank you" is great. I also then, depending on the context, but especially if I'm talking with friends, I appreciate if they are reciprocal and sharing something about themselves that's equally as vulnerable.
Everybody has a set of identities and everybody has a story. I don't want to have to feel like I'm the only one who's being spotlighted, but that there's reciprocity in those conversations. Again, I think it's often really well-intentioned to your point.
But people want to, you know, throw flowers in a way (laughs) that I think, especially because I've been out for - I think this year it's going to be 30 years as genderqueer. (laughs) Like, whaaat? And 40 years as being queer. Like, I don't need to be congratulated for that.
Although I, I will say that I appreciate the fact that I'm still here. And I think now when I teach - I often have young, right, like college-age trans and nonbinary folks in my class - I can tell, and sometimes they'll say it to me, of being grateful to know that someone 62 still lives and exists in the world. You know, I don't take that lightly.
So that part, like the, "you made it through part," (laughs) I don't mind a rose or two being thrown, but like, the kind of "congratulations for being who you are" part, I don't - yeah, it doesn't always land well with me.
[00:11:20] Charlie Ocean: So I shouldn't send you the card that says, "Congrats! It's a Shane." (both laugh)
[00:11:25] Shane Whalley: Yeah. Yeah, maybe, I don't know.
[00:11:30] Charlie Ocean: Well, there's a lot in what you just said. So going back to the piece about being brave, I kind of get where people are coming from, I think even more so than ever right now, just because of - even if you just follow the thread of the anti-trans and anti LGBTQ+ legislation, in some ways it does feel brave.
There's also this conversation I've been having with my friends about the word "resilient." And when someone says I'm so resilient, right. (laughs) And you're, you just made a face. So - we'll get there. I -
[00:12:04] Shane Whalley: It's like, "yes, and . . ." right? "Yes, and . . ."
[00:12:06] Charlie Ocean: It's bittersweet because it's like, I didn't ask for this. I didn't ask to have to be resilient because I don't think it's the flex people think it is. I don't think that we have to learn by way of trauma or hardship. We should be able to have access to good quality lives where, yeah, we're not like constantly under attack. And I don't even want to play the game of like who has it worse or anything because I think everyone loses in that game, so I choose not to play it, but yeah, there's even something behind the resilient piece.
And I guess like when people are saying, "You're so brave," which again, I can see that because you have been doing this work longer than I have. Part of that is just because you're a little bit older than me, but you know, I mean, when I think about different milestones that have happened in our community, like the Compton Cafeteria riots, etc. you know, there's lots of examples out there. Like really, I would say those people are brave.
And there's also this, like, quote out there, something to the effect of, you know, "Sometimes those people on the front lines, they have nothing left to lose, so they have to fight."
[00:13:18] Shane Whalley: Right.
[00:13:19] Charlie Ocean: Thanks to Google, it might be, "Never fight with a fighter who has nothing to lose." And there's variations of it, so, another one is "Never contend with a man who has nothing to lose."
If someone wanted to share something to the effect of, "Shane, you're so brave, you're so resilient." What would be a better way to receive that kind of love and support?
[00:13:48] Shane Whalley: I appreciate it when people say "I'm glad you're here." Like, I am here because of being resilient and being courageous and having, you know, support and community. So when people are just like - gratitude for my being, I take that in better because it doesn't make assumptions about why my being is here. It just acknowledges my being.
[00:14:15] Charlie Ocean: Well, Shane, (Shane laughs) I'm glad you're here.
[00:14:20] Shane Whalley: Thank you. And you as well.
[00:14:22] Charlie Ocean: Thank you.
[00:14:23] Shane Whalley: Yep.
[00:14:24] Charlie Ocean: Another thread I wanted to come back to, when we're sharing something vulnerable, you said that it would be well received for you to hear something in return, like, have someone also share their story of who they are, let's say that.
[00:14:40] Shane Whalley: Yep.
[00:14:40] Charlie Ocean: Now, culturally, I've been taught by neurotypical people that it's rude to do something like that. However, we have learned over the years that there is a huge overlap between neurodivergence, especially autism and ADHD, of which I checked both of those boxes (laughs) and being part of LGBTQ+ communities.
So not everyone receives that well. And so I, I think that, you know, points back to a larger issue of cultural stuff, because for the folks doing that, it's not meant to take away from Shane's experience. It's because I'm trying to relate to you. I'm not trying to like, say I have it better or worse. It's just my way of saying "You just shared this deeply vulnerable thing with me, and I want to return the favor for genuine connection purposes."
[00:15:34] Shane Whalley: Correct. Right, it's not about one-upping. Like, "Oh, you think you had it bad -" like, it's not about that. I think it's about - so let's say I have a newish friend who invites me for a meal, because they're wanting to find out more about nonbinary-ness, right? So it's lunch and a lesson. (both laugh)
If in that, if you're asking me about my identities and you're not willing to share anything about yours, that doesn't feel good. So for me, it's about reciprocity. It's not necessarily about, "Oh, you did a five on the vulnerability scale. I can do a six." It's not about that.
It's about not feeling like a zoological creature, that I'm behind a fence and you are observing me, but that we are out in a prairie together, (laughs) right, like sharing experiences as creatures in the world. Does that make sense? It's probably not my greatest analogy, but it's kind of where -
White supremacy culture, and whiteness, means that we've been trained that we - the other, right, the person who is othered - it is their responsibility to let us know about them. And I think the reciprocity helps break that down.
[00:16:52] Charlie Ocean: What I hear in what you're saying, how it relates to me, is connection and community.
[00:16:59] Shane Whalley: Right.
[00:17:00] Charlie Ocean: Which can be really scary.
[00:17:01] Shane Whalley: Yep.
[00:17:02] Charlie Ocean: And I've found that in all the work I do, I feel like it's almost the answer to like everything.
[00:17:07] Shane Whalley: Yep. I mean, I talk about the fact that I think for our wellbeing, right, to be kind of our best selves, that we need hope, purpose, and community. That if we have those three things, right, as individuals, it, for me, increases wellness. Community is such an important part of that kind of three legged stool.
[00:17:29] Charlie Ocean: Something I get from social media is definitely a sense of community and connection, and especially in the relationships that form from that. I'm even thinking of people who have been on the podcast, like Zoa and Maze. I wouldn't have met them if it weren't for Instagram as an example.
[00:17:47] Shane Whalley: Mm-hmm.
[00:17:48] Charlie Ocean: So something, a gem I recently got from social media because you know, I think there's a lot of really interesting posts - there's this sense of, I don't know, wanting to reframe certain things or rephrase certain things. And sometimes I'm down for that, or at least I'm open to it.
One of the things I recently came across was not being interested in being my best self, but my favorite self. And so my question to you, Shane, is are you your favorite version of yourself today?
[00:18:19] Shane Whalley: January is a tough month for me, because January is the anniversary of my hospitalization. And anniversaries, for me, carry a lot of weight.
I was in an inpatient - mental health inpatient - setting in 2006, so it's been a very long time ago, for two weeks and we're kind of in the middle of those two weeks. If part of my favorite self maybe is being a little contemplative inward, (laughs) then yes, right.
I mean, I appreciate the fact that my favorite self may not be, by other people's definition, somebody's best self. And so, right. Which I think is your point.
It's kind of like, you know, kind of reframing "gender dysphoria" to "gender euphoria," how we think about things, you know, it's also the beginning of the year where everything you hear on the news is about "fresh start," "What are we going to do?", "How are we going to get better?" (laughs) Please be quiet. Like there's shame and guilt in that for me. Or I feel like I need to get myself on an exercise program.
I am a version, maybe, of my favorite self. You know, now I'm going to have to send you a check for therapy. So that's enough about that, yeah. (both laugh)
[00:19:31] Charlie Ocean: Please give me a payment plan, so that (laughs) I have a better chance of paying it off.
Yeah. I mean, for me, my favorite self, I think it helps us move away from capitalism and Western ideals and all that, because, what is my best self? Like you said, is it this checklist that I'm reading in some magazine that wants me to feel shitty about myself so it can sling me more products? I don't know.
Long ago, I've done away with, like, New Year's resolutions and all that, because if I feel moved or agitated enough to, like, make a change in my life, I'm gonna do it right away. I don't need some arbitrary new year or new month to be like, "New year, new me!" No thank you. Not interested.
But yeah, when I think about, am I my favorite version of myself? It's made me realize that yes, kind of like similar to your answer, there are parts of me that are my favorite version of myself. And it's also made me realize there are versions of myself in my childhood that I want to bring back, I guess, for a lack of better phrasing, right. Like, I want to tap into Christina, because she was awesome.
And I've said this before on the podcast, and I've been sharing this more openly later - well, as of late, rather - and so, like, I couldn't be Charlie Ocean today if I wasn't Christina Angelina Murphy. And there are just things about her. You want to say "resilience"? (laughs) You want to say that she was brave? Whatever. There are pieces of her that I want to integrate into my favorite version of me presently.
Thank you for sharing what you did about mental health. I think that especially when I'm thinking of like the 90s and again, this is something that's come up on the podcast before. When I was first accessing media about the LGBTQ community, a lot of it was that the different members that you saw, like the different representation in media, there was always something like major mental health issues, there were murders, something, died by suicide at the end of the movie, like they could never have -
[00:21:34] Shane Whalley: Right.
[00:21:34] Charlie Ocean: A happy story, right. And we've been seeing that shift. We've been seeing that shift in a lot of different shows and movies. And it's not to say that we don't experience mental health concerns. It's more that, like, it's not inherently because we're part of the LGBTQ+ communities. It's more that it's a reflection of society and how much acceptance we have or not, or what kind of, you know, things are happening legislatively.
And I know it's a little bit more complex than that. But for me, it's a lot more social than anything else. It brings me back to that example of when a plant isn't doing well, you change the environment, not the plant, right.
[00:22:15] Shane Whalley: Right.
[00:22:15] Charlie Ocean: So like if I'm in an environment that sets me up for better success, which again, capitalism, etc., doesn't allow for that, at least not for everyone. That makes a huge difference. So I guess, that said, with this, I think you said it's Mental Health Awareness Month for January.
[00:22:34] Shane Whalley: It is. January's Mental Health Awareness Month, uh huh.
[00:22:36] Charlie Ocean: What do you feel moved to share about your experience outside of what you've just told us?
[00:22:43] Shane Whalley: What got me there, right, was feeling like I was my favorite self. Like I'd found this amazing thing out about myself. So I came out, right, around the gender identity piece in the mid 90s - I think I said 2006 and I should have said 1996 - I don't know what year I said, but 1996 would be the year. So I had language for myself. I was wearing clothes I wanted.
I felt, I felt really strong until I talked to my parents on the phone and they were not on board. And I was seeing, fortunately, an amazing therapist at the time. I just didn't want to have the fight all the time. And again, right, like 1994 was a time where I identified as living in the gender gray. We didn't have language. There was no community. I didn't have role models. I just didn't, I didn't want to be, I didn't want to be on the planet.
And the way that I kind of navigated the world was I was kept exceedingly busy. I worked a job that was more than 40 hours a week. I was on about five committees. I was working at Cornell University. And if I stopped to be with my thoughts, it was bad. (laughs) So I just, right, kept on track and I realized that in order to get where I needed to go, I needed to be able to put my life on hold for a bit and one hour a week in therapy didn't allow the deep dive that needed to happen.
And amazingly, my therapist - so one of the things I was dealing with was always feeling like I was an outsider and never feeling like I belonged. And my therapist wanted to make sure that I didn't reproduce that in an inpatient program, right. (laughs)
So she interestingly found an LGBT unit in a private hospital in Tampa, Florida that had, there at the time there was a gender center, like a surgery center, right, for gender affirming surgeries in Tampa. And this hospital had a therapist who had worked with trans clients and that was not very common at that time. That's where I went and I was able to do what I needed to do there and I'm not sure that I would be on the planet had I not done that.
And it was terrible and scary and frightening. And I think a lot of times for me, it's easier for me to come out as queer and genderqueer than as somebody that has a pretty serious history around mental health challenges and has impatient as kind of part of my resume of that. I think it's important for who I am in the world and how visible and outspoken and vocal I am and how brave and resilient and (Charlie laughs) all those things, right, is that I wouldn't be those things if I hadn't had that experience in '96.
I talk about it. I talk about it with people because we're often taught that we have to kind of pull ourselves up by our proverbial bootstraps, right, and muscle our way through. And going back to kind of community care and support. And I was fortunate that I had good private insurance and had a supportive partner who was financially better off than I was and could, you know, help me cause good mental health care is not accessible for everybody. For many, actually. So -
[00:26:11] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, something interesting that came up for me is, I've been suicidal since second grade.
[00:26:18] Shane Whalley: Yep.
[00:26:18] Charlie Ocean: And there's a whole story there.
By the time I graduated from my social work program, since we're both social workers -
[00:26:25] Shane Whalley: Yep.
[00:26:26] Charlie Ocean: It was 2014. I first worked at a place called TeenLine. Both at TeenLine and shortly after when I'd work at The Trevor Project, both of it, it was primarily suicide prevention. Both also had a focus on the LGBTQ+ communities.
I thought at that point, because I was in my first apartment by myself. I felt like, "Oh, I'm doing this adulting thing." It wasn't long after that I realized that none of us know what we're doing. We're all just trying to figure it out and make it look like we know what we're doing, but yeah, trying to hide that, I think, cause of things like shame.
However. I thought, "Oh, okay, I'm good now. Yeah, I've got this like first job out of school." I mean, I'd been working, you know, well before that, but, you know, I've got my first social work job, you know, all these things are coming together. And then especially once I was working at the Trevor Project, I was like, you know, this is such an amazing organization. They're doing such great work.
I always thought like, "Okay, that voice can be silenced now." And I've had to make peace - and you're shaking your head - I've had to make peace with the fact that I'm always going to be suicidal. Now, the levels to which that is loud or present in my mind varies, and I'd say the biggest piece that drives that is my lack of community and support.
[00:27:47] Shane Whalley: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:48] Charlie Ocean: So when there are periods of time that I don't feel like I have as easy of access to community and support, that gets much louder.
[00:27:56] Shane Whalley: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:57] Charlie Ocean: And then sometimes even when I do have community, but again, the supports piece is still missing. And by support, I mean, in this particular case, things like financial means, like you were talking about having access to good healthcare, having access to good informed, culturally competent, cultural humility, you know, based -
[00:28:18] Shane Whalley: Right.
[00:28:19] Charlie Ocean: Therapists, etc. And it's just been something that's been difficult for me to have consistently. And I've also just hit a point where like, I'm just done with talk therapy. I'm, I'm all talked out. I don't need to talk anymore. Well, I can rant. I can rant for days. I think people know that if they know me at all, but it doesn't penetrate deep enough into like the stored body trauma. So I can talk to talk therapy all day, but it's not going to help me a lot in the way of progress.
But that said, I'm just, I'm always going to be suicidal. The degree to which that is loud or present is going to shift and vary over time. I'd like to just squish it once and for all. So it's not even an option, but it is.
[00:28:58] Shane Whalley: Yep.
[00:28:58] Charlie Ocean: I'm curious, like when you were shaking your head earlier, like if you feel comfortable sharing, like, how do you relate to that?
[00:29:05] Shane Whalley: Got a couple of decades on you (laughs) and it's still present for me. I have a couple of people in my life that I can be honest with about it and not worry that I'm gonna end up, you know, without my consent, right, (laughs) in a inpatient hospital. That becomes a reason why people don't talk about it. It's scary to be honest and then lose control of what is going to happen to you.
There are times when I - you know, I think, again, as somebody who is 62 and trying to figure out what I'm going to do with the rest of my life, (lauhs) right. I'm situated in Austin, Texas, even though Texas doesn't feel safe, it is home and it is community, right. Like I have built a world here, you know, again, going back to that kind of hope, community, and purpose, right. If I leave Austin, I lose community, possibly purpose, and then hope goes, right.
So I have to be careful to stay in the present or it makes, right, it makes things worse for me.
So yes, I think for me, I might use the term "suicidal ideation" is always with me, right.
[00:30:21] Charlie Ocean: Yeah.
[00:30:22] Shane Whalley: Yeah, and I - maybe not going back as far as you - but definitely starting very strongly in high school, you know, until now. It's a long journey; it can be scary.
[00:30:33] Charlie Ocean: Yeah. Have you lost anyone in your community because they've left Texas?
[00:30:39] Shane Whalley: Yeah, I have a lot of trans friends, adults, right, not kids, but adults who have left and are living in more progressive states. Good for them, and I'm happy for them. And I know families who have trans kids who have left the state.
I mean, I think, you know, going back to the mental health piece, It is hard to live in a place where every day when you turn on your TV or your radio or you look online, you're hearing hateful untruths, right, like all the time.
You know, we're a very big anti reproductive justice state. So this legislative session took a toll in one way, and then in the other way, right, like the community showed up and was at the Capitol almost every day. And so there was a lot of community built around the people that were showing up, but I would much rather we got to show up for different re- right, like gather (laughs) for happier reasons than, you know, than the fight.
So, I've been trying to have conversations - I've been wanting to have, maybe hungry to have - conversations that I call dreaming forward. I am tired of being reactive and I would like to live in a world where we're proactive.
And so for me, you know, I've been doing miracle questions with groups of people, including my students saying, you know, if we woke up tomorrow and trans and nonbinary people felt a strong sense of belonging, what are some of the first things that we would notice are different?
And then how do we plan to work forward to that reality? Which, for me, is a much more hopeful frame. And the truth is, especially in states that are after us, like the thought of being proactive is difficult because the reality is we're having to, you know, kind of play defense, but I think we can do this work differently.
And I am a dreamer, (laughs) right. And so the other piece that I have been talking a lot about recently is, when I say "belonging," I don't think people can truly belong unless equity is in place. So I talk about belonging as a way to talk about equity without using the term. Because everything needs to be in place so I can be in a space and relax and feel like I can bring my full self in. And in order to be able to do that, the equity piece has to be there.
So part of this work is figuring out what the frames are that aren't always thinking about it from a deficit model that might open some doors differently.
[00:33:30] Charlie Ocean: And to your point, a lot of people talk about being inclusive and the belonging piece, you can create a space that's inclusive, but it doesn't mean people are going to feel like they belong.
[00:33:41] Shane Whalley: Correct. Yep. Yeah, I can be included and not at all feel like I belong.
[00:33:49] Charlie Ocean: So, hot take I have, I think, since we talked about this a long time ago, LGBTQ+ or LGBTQIA+ which do you use currently right now, and why?
[00:34:02] Shane Whalley: I use LGBTQIA+ currently.
[00:34:07] Charlie Ocean: I know you don't like the plus.
[00:34:08] Shane Whalley: It's a necessary evil, maybe , (both laugh) right? Like I understand, I understand it. And as somebody who started out with (laughs) when it was just a "G" and maybe an "L" if you were lucky, right, (laughs) where I started in the alphabet.
And I do it because it brings in as many letters as I think people can tolerate. I include the "I" because I think intersex gets left out of the conversation a lot, and I think it needs to not.
[00:34:39] Charlie Ocean: Yeah.
[00:34:40] Shane Whalley: I am so interested in how "A" has changed over time. Like, back in the day, A was "ally", and now I know groups of people who don't feel it should ever be used as "ally", right. And we use it as "agender", "asexual", all the "A's."
[00:34:56] Charlie Ocean: Yeah.
(begin musical PSA to punk/zalt rock tune)
[00:34:57] Charlie Ocean: A was for ally, now we question why. You don't belong here,
It's what we used to say. But now we don't do it that way, cause you are not queer.
A was for ally, but now we say goodbye. You don't belong here,
It's what we used to say. But now we don't do it that way, cause you are not queer.
Now it's ace, agender, I hope people remember. What about aromantic? I think they're fantastic.
(end musical PSA)
[00:35:39] Charlie Ocean: I'm gonna quickly clarify here that I appreciate those practicing allyship. And sometimes when you're trying to write a catchy song, you can't do that with nuance.
And so please understand that when I'm saying you don't belong here, it simply means that "ally" should not be part of LGBTQIA+ because it's not a queer identity. So that's all I'm trying to say.
[00:36:10] Shane Whalley: And so it's been interesting for me because I've had, you know, when people are like, "Well, what's the 'A'?" I have to kind of stop, be like, "Well-" and again, we talked about this a lot with the first podcast, like, I may say, "Well, the historical context is - right - 'A' was for 'ally'." And now, complicate it, right, and go forward.
[00:36:29] Charlie Ocean: When I, I recently had someone ask me, "What does the plus stand for?" I had to pause and I had to really think about it. And I was like, going through the letters, I was like, "Okay, what's missing from here?" And then, you know, I landed - you know, depending on how you use the "B" for "bisexual."
[00:36:45] Shane Whalley: Yep.
[00:36:45] Charlie Ocean: If you're using that to be encompassing in an umbrella term of things like, pansexual, omnisexual, etc., you know, then cool. We're covered. But when I had to think about what the "+" included, I forget what I even said in the moment to my friend, but I was glad that they asked me that, cause I was like," Yeah, shit," we say it all the time, but I've never seen anyone explicitly say what the "+" is including.
[00:37:10] Shane Whalley: I think I say the "+" stands for all of the language that has been developed and will be developed, that has not yet made it in the alphabet. Right, because "demisexual," we don't have a "D" in there.
[00:37:26] Charlie Ocean: Similarly with the bisexual community, demisexual falls under the asexuality umbrella, so technically it could fall under the "A". It just depends on where people see themselves and where they want to be within the communities.
[00:37:40] Shane Whalley: Right, there's just so much language. Part of my resistance too is, who and how do we decide when a thing, you know, gets added.
And I know people who use longer alphabets than that, you know, I sometimes find myself like bristling or getting resistant, right, (laughs) getting resistant. So -
[00:37:58] Charlie Ocean: And that's my hot take. I've been wanting to venture out and use LGBTQIA+ because I, I know that in the past, when I've said it people who are agender, asexual, aromantic, etc., intersex, they really appreciated that because they see it so little.
[00:38:19] Shane Whalley: Yep.
[00:38:19] Charlie Ocean: So my hot take, though, is then when it becomes nearly the whole alphabet, I think it takes away, and I think it also becomes a issue for those who are disabled. Because I think it becomes inaccessible for people to say. I already know people who stumble on it anyway with just, like, LGBTQ.
[00:38:42] Shane Whalley: Right.
[00:38:43] Charlie Ocean: What I'm getting at is that people have different access needs. Even people from within the community also stumble on the various initialisms. Now, acronyms inherently are easier to pronounce because they're meant to be read as a word. Which is why I spent a great amount of time coming up with a new acronym that I really liked. However, when I started talking with friends about it, and I even told Shane about it, there were some holes that people were finding.
Number one, it didn't inherently scream "queer", like previous ones have. Number two, it also includes people who are cisgender and straight, which I actually think is a good thing, but some of my friends were not convinced. But also, it's just hard to propose something new, and hope that people understand the thinking behind it, is that this is a bigger picture acronym, versus doing all of the infighting of figuring out which letter goes where and when, and, yeah.
Hot mess express.
Also, we can't exactly get away from initialisms, because sometimes we still need them, when we're only talking about specific communities, especially in something like research. I don't have the answers, but I did want to give it a try, and maybe someday I'll more formally tell people about it, but for now I'm gonna go back to the drawing board.
And you may be thinking, "Charlie, what about queer? Doesn't that just seem like the solve all? Like, everyone knows that term. Don't a lot of people align with it?" And the answer is no, there's a significant chunk of folks that don't align with that term. And so I think because of things like geographical location and different cultures and societies, everyone's gonna have to choose the language that best represents them, including the larger groupings of people.
So whether that's LGBTQIA+, queer, 2S, LGBTQIA plus - whatever that looks like. They are individual and community based decisions. And I don't know if we'll ever have like a good universal answer to that. I don't think it's possible because of intersectionality and geographical differences, etc.
[00:41:02] Shane Whalley: Well, and the fact that we have expanding language, right? We have expansive language, which people want to use the language that most brings them joy, right, or fits with them. And when I used to teach Peers for Pride, we would come up with as much of the language as we could at that time. And again, that was a decade ago now. Right, like, I went all the way across a whiteboard in a classroom.
And I, I think it's tricky to say, like, I get it from an ableism lens. But I remember when people couldn't say LGBT, like, they couldn't get four letters out of their mouth, right. And then we put a "Q" right, yeah - and I, so I've become really accustomed to LGBTQIA+ but yeah, I don't, I don't know that there's a right answer.
Right, for a while, people were using "QUILTBAG" for a hot minute, right. (laughs) Fortunately, that went away. Yeah, I don't know. We'll see, because when people say, "Well, why do we even need labels?" Right, I'm like, "We need labels so we can oppress people." (both laugh) That's why, right.
I think a lot of times that's why the labels are there, right. Like "homosexual" was coined so we could be studied.
[00:42:16] Charlie Ocean: Well, I mean, for me, like it's been - and this isn't everyone's experience - however, for myself, I know it's been critical because it's helped me define community and language to describe my experience. And I know that that will continue to evolve. So to me, those, like, far outweigh the cons.
[00:42:35] Shane Whalley: So, I think as long as we can help an audience understand why we use what we use, you know, again, if you're asked what the plus is, do you have an answer for that? If you leave out something, you can explain, you know, why you leave it out.
You know, one of the things in the work, right - we talk about "the work," like we know what that means - but in social justice or DEI work or - is, you know, being able to sit in the discomfort when people disagree with you about your alphabet and that you can stay in and have those conversations.
I have a hard time with "Historically, what's the term you use, historically, what?"
[00:43:15] Charlie Ocean: Historically excluded groups.
[00:43:17] Shane Whalley: But we're also currently excluded groups. And so when we only say "historical," then people can think it happened in the past and it's been fixed. So I often will talk about, I may say, "historically and currently excluded groups." And again, that's just my thing, right, because we often talk about, in higher ed, we talk about "historically marginalized groups."
And I'm like, "currently marginalized groups."
[00:43:40] Charlie Ocean: Right.
[00:43:40] Shane Whalley: So every time you've said it right, like, I bounce a bit. And I'm like, "We're going to have a chance to talk about that." You know, can we stay in conversations with each other? And the answer I know with you is "yes" or you wouldn't be doing a podcast. (laughs)
[00:43:53] Charlie Ocean: Mm-hmm.
[00:43:54] Shane Whalley: Like this wouldn't be a format you set up if you weren't willing to have a conversation.
[00:43:58] Charlie Ocean: I know I could change it or have a subset of like, "Charlie is wrong" and then just have conversations with people where they help me get to the better language.
[00:44:07] Shane Whalley: And I don't think it's wrong.
[00:44:09] Charlie Ocean: Yeah -
[00:44:09] Shane Whalley: Just is.
[00:44:10] Charlie Ocean: We're always doing the best we can with the information we have, which is why like now you'll see this shift to more folks saying "people of the global majority" meant to like replace "people of color" I get why. And we don't want to use that as, a catch all all the time because sometimes we're not talking about all people of the global majority. So if we're only talking about people who are Samoan, then we need to say that.
[00:44:40] Shane Whalley: Right.
[00:44:40] Charlie Ocean: And we need to be as specific as possible, and I think that's what you were talking about too, the whole piece around like, which initialism or acronym. Sometimes it's going to matter because if you're doing a study academically, right, someone obtaining their PhD or has their PhD, whatever, they're doing this research. Then if they say LGBTQ+ but they're really only talking about LGB -
[00:45:04] Shane Whalley: Yeah.
[00:45:04] Charlie Ocean: I'm going to pause, because that's not accurate.
[00:45:07] Shane Whalley: Correct.
[00:45:08] Charlie Ocean: I think it's being intentional and being ready to answer, "Can you help me understand why you use this?" Right. And I think most of the time in those documents, they tend to say, "This is why we use this language," whatever. Which is good and should be the thing. But (sighs) what is a term that is new to you that you've learned recently?
[00:45:29] Shane Whalley: I think I have been talking to people, giving them knowledge and haven't recently maybe been in spaces where I'm learning. So, I feel like I learned one in class from a student, but I can't remember. I don't have an answer for that.
[00:45:45] Charlie Ocean: Mine is gonna take me, hopefully, a quick second to look up. So, Cody, who has been on the podcast and known as AceDadAdvice, has these really wonderful educational posts.
Sometimes, we'll drop a term I haven't heard of before, and I'm like, "what?" The most recent term I've learned, as of about six days ago, is "Wavership." "Wavership" describes a relationship that fluctuates between different relationship types while remaining one relationship. For example, one day it can be a romantic relationship, other days it can be queerplatonic, and other days it can be platonic.
So, waverships are a way to describe relationships for folks who have fluctuating experiences of romantic and other kinds of attractions. And I actually really loved that. Without airing your, your personal life, I think that you and I have had conversations about certain relationships in our lives that I think that actually would fit.
[00:46:55] Shane Whalley: Yes. I was going to say," Oh, I have a friend I'm going to have to (Charlie laughs) send that to."
[00:47:00] Charlie Ocean: So, yeah. And I love it. I think it's actually kind of cute.
[00:47:02] Shane Whalley: Yeah.
[00:47:03] Charlie Ocean: So Shane, in your inaugural episode, you claim to be politically sassy. Is that still your vibe? And if so, break it down for us. What's the essence of being politically sassy and what role does that play in your world?
[00:47:17] Shane Whalley: Yeah, I would say that is probably still true. It's code, right, for fierceness. (laughs) Fierceness scares people, sassiness is inviting. And I think for me, it is about speaking my truth in spaces where it might be illegal (laughs) you know. And holding space for other people to be able to speak their truths as well. And trying to break out of the white supremacy culture characteristics, right.
Like I now start every class by putting up a slide that has four different images and there are four different images every day, having my students check in with each other to find out what picture they're vibing with. And the pictures usually have different types of emotional, right, components.
And then, you know, I give each number and I asked them to raise their hand on where they are. And then I asked them what the vibe is and I find that what they think the vibe is and why I may have chosen the picture are not, right, the same. And that probably takes five to seven minutes of my class time.
[00:48:28] Charlie Ocean: I don't know, I love that.
[00:48:30] Shane Whalley: Right. But for like, for me, relationship before task, right, is imperative.
And so for me, that's, you know, breaking the academic rules, right, as part of my political sessions. I also now do that in all of my workshops and it's super helpful for me because one of my pictures has the Tasmanian Devil, Eeyore, Timon, kind of in a outstretched like, huh, and an angry bird.
If I have a bunch of people who all are feeling like Eeyore, I know I have to like step up my peppiness, or if I have a bunch of angry birds, we're gonna just talk about that before I start, right. So it also helps me kind of get a feel of what, you know, what the status of the thing is.
[00:49:18] Charlie Ocean: I love that because earlier when you talked about being present and working on being present, I think that's a beautiful way to ground in the session and be together, because it's really easy to whip out our phones, scroll through Instagram and pretend like we're half listening, but we're really not and all that.
And I, yeah, I think being able to take a moment and ask ourselves, "Yeah, how am I feeling right now?" And being able to see, especially if like there are people that resonate with that too, then, yeah, it creates that sense of community.
Alright, quick one for you, Shane. Complete the following sentence: you can be "blank" and "blank."
[00:49:56] Shane Whalley: You can be kind and fierce.
People, you know, that, we've had this, kind of gone through this place of like, social justice warriors. And there's a, I think there's a feeling of that - that's a person who's angry all the time, right, and that you can't say anything without getting corrected, right? Like, there's a whole backstory that goes with somebody who is seen as a social justice warrior.
I may or may not have been called that, right. (laughs) I'm also somebody who, you know, I can be politically outspoken, and I can be highly relational and interpersonal and kind. I can hold that duality every day, all the time. I don't think people understand that.
[00:50:44] Charlie Ocean: Again, on the internet, I've seen things about like, "I don't care about niceness, it's completely different from kindness," you know, which is more intentional. And when I hear fierceness, I hear boundaries.
[00:50:56] Shane Whalley: Mm-hmm.
[00:50:56] Charlie Ocean: So I can be kind and have boundaries.
[00:50:59] Shane Whalley: Mm-hmm.
[00:51:00] Charlie Ocean: Is what I was taken away from what you just shared.
[00:51:03] Shane Whalley: That's also true. Yeah.
[00:51:06] Charlie Ocean: Shane, you dropped wisdom last time about acknowledging, apologizing, and repairing when we mess up.
[00:51:12] Shane Whalley: Yeah.
[00:51:13] Charlie Ocean: Anything new on that front?
[00:51:16] Shane Whalley: Do not jump in to save a person without finding out if it's what they want to have happen. Right, (laughs) and here's the example, so I can - I'll tell the story, right.
I was having brunch with a good friend of mine, who I have permission to share the story from. You know, my gender is often read in the context of who I'm with. So if I'm with a cis woman, right, I get "ladied." And so we had been late, you know, "Ladies, what do you want?", "Ladies, do you want more water?", Ladies, ladies, ladies. And I had heard it every time.
And my friend, maybe the fourth time, our server left, walked away. And my friend asked, she's like, "She just 'ladied' us!" and I'm like, "Yes, fifth time." She's like, "Oh, I just heard it." She's like, "Would you like me to pull her aside and have a conversation with her?" And I said, "I so appreciate that you're interested in doing that. And no, thank you." And she said, which I appreciated, she said, "Do you have space to tell me why you don't want me to do it?"
So she didn't just insist that I tell her, she checked. And I said, "You know, for me, with people who are one-offs in my life, I don't think they need to know all the things. She's our server and she's hustling. It isn't important to me that you do that."
And I've had another friend since then also, we had the same situation, same conversation.
Instead of her leaping in and being like, "Server, how dare you? The person I'm eating with is nonbinary." Right, like, which would have been terrible for me, right. Like, it impacts my safety. It impacts, possibly, the quality of the food I'm going to eat. (laughs) So, so always making sure that you're checking in if you think that an intervention needs to happen.
You know, people - I have this conversation about pronouns too - they're like, "Well, if somebody gets misgendered, what should I do?" And I said, "Check with your friend and find out what they want you to do." Don't assume that they want you to make a big deal about it or correct it because it often centers us in a way that makes us unsafe.
So always check in, get permission, if you can think to do it in advance, that's delightful. To do it in real time is super helpful.
[00:53:35] Charlie Ocean: I had created a few years ago a pronoun and name mistake flowchart for like what to do.
[00:53:42] Shane Whalley: Yeah.
[00:53:43] Charlie Ocean: I'd recently made some updates to it, but the very intentional thing I included - especially the first round - was the consent piece. Like, do you have consent to correct on someone else's behalf? And I don't mean the person who made the mistake. I mean, the person who it impacts, the person who has been misgendered or the wrong name was used.
[00:54:00] Shane Whalley: Right.
[00:54:00] Charlie Ocean: And then I'll explain ideally when you're meeting someone and first getting to know them and all that, trying to ask them around that time can be really helpful before anything happens, just so you can be super clear.
[00:54:12] Shane Whalley: Right.
[00:54:13] Charlie Ocean: And heck, I'd even check in over time just to see if that's like changed at all.
[00:54:17] Shane Whalley: Right.
[00:54:17] Charlie Ocean: The other piece of it is that, okay, if it's happening during a meeting, what you could do is, you know - especially depending on your relationship to that person, how close you are, you know, there's lots of dynamics to consider - but you can ask them after the fact. Like, "By the way, I overheard you know, and I noticed you didn't correct them. Would you like me to do that in the future?"
So there's always a way to come back to it, including if you've made the mistake yourself and you didn't self correct, no one else gently nudged you about it. And this is said a lot, I think we've said a lot of cliches throughout this episode: (laughs) we're not a monolith. Not all of us are honored in the same ways.
Some of us, yeah, want a more, like, I don't know, quieter existence, if you will. Because, yeah, don't need to cause a scene. And, like you said, if I'm probably never gonna see this person again, I don't care for them to know that much about me.
If there's going to continue to be a relationship, maybe I am a regular at that establishment or something. Then maybe I might say something like, "Oh, by the way, I'm nonbinary." Usually it's after they've served me a few times. It's usually not like the first one, cause I have to work up the nerve to do it. But -
[00:55:27] Shane Whalley: Right. Yeah, I just, I was at a, tire shop, which would actually probably be the least likely place that I might correct somebody, but the guy who was working with me was super friendly and was obviously trying hard to get my business. And so I said to him, as I was paying my bill, I said, "Can I give you a customer service tip?" And he was like, "yes", and I said, "I'm nonbinary, so sir- and mamming me is not particularly helpful." He said, "What would it have been?" I said, "Just to call me Shane. Just use my name."
And he was like, "Great, thank you." Right, like, he was so grateful. But I had established a bit of a relationship and rapport with him over the time that they were fixing a leaky tire that - and he was the manager, so I also figured he might then train his other employees, like it felt like a bigger tell than just to him. Or maybe he might call me back and ask me to do a training, right. (laughs)
Like, it felt like there were a lot of reasons to possibly have that conversation. But I think allies often want to help, (laughs) right, but it's really best to find out how people want.
[00:56:38] Charlie Ocean: And that's the thing, sometimes it's coming from corporate or something, right. Like that's exactly how they've been trained is to "sir" or "mam" people, or say, "Mr. Ocean" or whatever. And I, ooh, especially when I'm like on a healthcare call, cause I know we're probably going to be - like a health insurance call - and I know we're probably going to be on there a while. I always interject immediately and just say, you know, "Please call me Charlie."
[00:56:58] Shane Whalley: Yep.
[00:56:59] Charlie Ocean: Cause that's it. And they'll sometimes like fall back into it and say, "I'm sorry - Charlie." I'm like, "It's cool. Thank you." And it doesn't have to be like the why or anything, but yeah, like I just don't need the formality.
[00:57:11] Shane Whalley: Right, yep.
[00:57:12] Charlie Ocean: So.
[00:57:13] Shane Whalley: Yeah.
[00:57:14] Charlie Ocean: Shane, thanks for coming back. It's always a pleasure to connect with you and thanks again for helping to kick off the podcast's first season.
Speaking of, if you would like to help, we're up for two nominations right now: the Rainbow Mic and People's Choice Award, by Sonic Bloom Awards. You can vote for the People's Choice Award as many times as you'd like through January 25th when they announce the winners in Orlando, Florida. I'm not asking you to vote a bajillion times. However, any votes would be incredibly appreciated if you've gotten anything from this podcast and the guests.
And now, the final three self-reflection questions.
4. Do I experience suicide ideation? If so, do I know who and where to go for support?
5. Do I feel like I belong?
6. Have I ever heard of the term "Wavership"? Does it apply to any of my relationships?
Visit AllyshipIsAVerb.com for any resources and a full transcript of the episode.
And remember, sometimes allyship means voting for your favorite podcasts.