Dominic

This episode is sponsored by Rebecca Minor, LICSW. For more information about her resource, My Kid Just Came Out: Free Guide for Parents, please visit: https://www.genderspecialist.com/nowwhat

Are you open to other's paths? In this week’s episode, Dominic (he/him) talks about the first time he got hit on by a girl and how that started his sexuality (and later gender) journey. Learn about what shifts occurred in his life as he started to be read as a man in society and some decisions he's made as a result, including going stealth. We also discuss how he told his mom he's a trans man and some of her initial reactions. Dominic talks about how he's felt in LGBTQ+ spaces over the years and how he kind of misses them but it would contradict his decision to be private. He also talks about co-running a support group and some of the stressful moments that have come about as a result.

💜 Donate monthly: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/allyship-is-a-verb/support

👕 Grab merch: https://www.bonfire.com/store/allyship-is-a-verb/

🎧 Follow: https://pod.link/allyshipisaverb

💻 Sources and resources from this episode:

• Count Me In - Human Rights Campaign

• Potato Parcel

• RuPaul Responds To Controversy Over The Word 'Tranny'

• How RuPaul’s comments on trans women led to a Drag Race revolt — and a rare apology

• Mariah Carey - Emotions | YouTube

• Trans Day of Visibility: Nonbinary Visibility Panel

• Say Gay Say Trans Bumper Sticker - Gender Sexuality Info’s Etsy shop

• PFLAG National - Find a chapter near you

• A Guide for the Gender Neutral B-Mitzvah

---

Full Transcript

Chris Angel Murphy 0:17

Well, hello there. My name is Chris Angel and my pronouns are they/them. Welcome to Allyship is a Verb, the LGBTQ+ podcast that explores and humanizes practicing allyship for the LGBTQ+ community and beyond!

Dominic 00:37

Hey, my name is Dominic and my pronouns are he/him.

Chris Angel Murphy 00:42

Friends, this is not a typical episode, and the length of the episode may have been your first clue. My longtime friend Dominic, whose name has been changed to protect his identity, agreed to a conversation because technically he is a trans man, but he's stealth. This is not always an experience we get to hear about due to privacy and it being a deeply personal and complex decision. We get into how we met, what led to him being stealth, what he's still exploring moving forward, and his story overall.

Chris Angel Murphy 01:20

I do want to give a content warning for the T slur, F slur, and general transphobia mentioned briefly. Because you're here, you probably do this already, though, I encourage you to keep an open mind and heart as you listen to his story. With all of the anti-trans and anti-LGBTQ+ legislation sweeping across the States, as well as what's happening in the UK and beyond, these kinds of stories feel even more important to amplify. It's possible we could see more folks deciding to go stealth, especially if they have the privilege of passing or being read as a binary gender. We could also see people detransition, not only because of states passing legislation forcing them to, which is mostly impacting trans minors right now, though for safety reasons. I've mentored youth before who have had to make these kinds of decisions, and it's heartbreaking because they were so happy to discover being trans and better understand who they are, but lack of support can be a major driving force into pushing people back into any closets, or deny who they are, even to themselves.

Chris Angel Murphy 02:34

If you haven't already, and you would like to get involved to help combat what's happening, please check out HRC's Count Me In campaign. The Human Rights Campaign lists various actions you can take, including learning about transgender myths and facts. Please, let's make sure that no one has to make this kind of decision at any point in life if we can. The goal isn't to force people out or to invite others in. That's not the point. But rather make safer spaces so people can bring their whole selves and feel like they don't have to go into hiding.

Chris Angel Murphy 03:12

Here are three self-reflection questions to kick us off, and be sure to stay after for three more.

1. When did I first hear about the LGBTQ+ community? Was it a positive experience?

2. Has anyone ever come out to me? If so, looking back, did I potentially ask any invasive questions?

3. Have I ever dated anyone who was trans? If not, would I be open to it? Why or why not?

And now, the conversation.

Chris Angel Murphy 03:50

Where did you even get Dominic from?

Dominic 03:53

So when I was looking up the name that I wanted to be called after I started transitioning, um, I used, like, a name generator that, like, put in your last name and then, um, it just spewed out like 100 male names. And I don't know, Dominic was just one of the ones that I really liked? In addition, obviously to the one that I picked, so it was like, I narrowed it down to three. That was in my top three, so.

Chris Angel Murphy 04:21

Interesting.

Dominic 04:22

Yeah, I don't know. I just like the name, but I don't - I don't look like a Dominic, like, it doesn't fit me? [Chris Angel laughs] But yeah, I don't know. I just - I just think it's a nice name. [Dominic laughs]

Chris Angel Murphy 04:31

I mean, I don't know how a Dominic looks.

Dominic 04:33

More Italian, I feel like. [Dominic laughs]

Chris Angel Murphy 04:35

I've had a Dominic. Like, a "real" - I'm gonna use heavy air quotes here, "real Dominic", and just for the listeners so they know what the hell's going on right now.

Dominic 04:45

Right.

Chris Angel Murphy 04:45

Um, I - yeah, I, I did know a trans guy named Dominic, but that is another story for another day. You're just a fake-out and that's fine.

Dominic 04:53

I'm just a fake, yeah. I'm a wannabe Dominic. [Dominic laughs]

Chris Angel Murphy 04:56

Well, great segue. When you're talking about top three, it reminds me of top eight, which brings us to MySpace. And that's actually how we met.

Dominic 05:05

Yes.

Chris Angel Murphy 05:06

MySpace is a social network, that still exists today, that launched back in August of 2003. It was popular when I was in high school, and people could choose their top eight friends, which was public. And as you might imagine, for teenagers, it was a hot mess. Lots of fights broke out over who was in whose top eight. It still exists today but has shifted to being more about music, technology, and pop culture.

Chris Angel Murphy 05:33

We have known each other for a very long time. And, yeah, I guess... [Chris Angel and Dominic laugh] It's - I mean, I don't, I don't want to get into it too much for things that, um, we'll end up talking about anyway throughout the conversation. I need folks listening to know that our relationship is strangely beautiful. Um, I was just telling Dominic before we got started that I want to call you almost like a brother, because I've just known you so long and you feel like family to me, but we also do this, like, weird flirting shit, which is, it's totally fake. Like, like, but I don't know, can you speak to it? And, like, our videos and stuff?

Dominic 06:20

Oh, man. It's just, you know what? When I first added you on MySpace years ago, [Chris Angel laughs] it honestly - and I say this in truth - it was because I thought you were cute. [Dominic laughs]

Chris Angel Murphy 06:31

Yeah, no, it was mutual! It was mutual!

Dominic 06:35

Right. And I still think that you're super cute. And there's nothing wrong with that. [Dominic laughs]

Chris Angel Murphy 06:41

Okay, I'm glad we can admit attractions here because I am going to your wedding soon -

Dominic 06:47

Yes. Right.

Chris Angel Murphy 06:47

Even though you're already married because COVID. And so it feels good to say that [Dominic laughs] because I'm like, yeah, you're, you're attractive.

Dominic 06:54

You're attractive!

Chris Angel Murphy 06:54

So, anyway.

Dominic 06:55

I respect that. So yeah, no, I mean, you know, it's always been flirty. But at the end of the day, I feel like we have a really strong friendship, and you are like a sibling to me as well. And I love that about our relationship, like, we can - and we've seen this throughout the course of our friendship, you know - we can talk for daily for months, and then not speak for six months because of life happening, and then pick up the next day like I just saw you yesterday, you know? And I love those types of friendships because that, to me, is like, a true, like, at its core, lifelong friendship. And I feel like that's what we have. And I really do appreciate that, um, and having that with you.

Chris Angel Murphy 07:37

It's completely mutual because I just think about how much our relationship has evolved over the years. And it started based on lies, mostly to, like, your mom. [Chris Angel laughs]

Dominic 07:47

Right. [Dominic laughs]

Chris Angel Murphy 07:47

Who won't be listening, so that's good.

Dominic 07:49

Yep. Hi, hi mom. [Chris Angel and Dominic laugh]

Chris Angel Murphy 07:53

But, you know, it started in lies because we were babies. We were, we were babies, and you flew out to California with your family and we got to meet in person.

Dominic 08:04

Yeah. [Dominic laughs]

Chris Angel Murphy 08:05

And that could have been horribly wrong -

Dominic 08:08

Yes.

Chris Angel Murphy 08:08

For so many reasons. But it was great, and like, I don't know. Like, your mom didn't pry too much into, like, how we knew each other and stuff.

Dominic 08:16

Yeah.

Chris Angel Murphy 08:17

And I wouldn't have been able to lie about where you live, and like, what schools we went to and stuff. [Dominic laughs] But, like, it was awkward and cute, and I still have them, but we took all of these photos of each other too, just being awkward and cute together.

Dominic 08:31

We're gonna have to retake those at my wedding, get the professional photographer. [Chris Angel and Dominic laugh]

Chris Angel Murphy 08:36

And then I won't be able to share them with anyone, for reasons that we'll get into very soon.

Dominic 08:41

Yes, but, you know.

Chris Angel Murphy 08:42

However, I've been fortunate. Um, I felt, you know, really good that over the years, you've been able to come out to California a few times, and we've been able to hang out that way because, like, you've met a previous partner that I've had and - okay. Here - like, here's, like, why we're always doing this awkward dance, is because we're just too perfect together.

Dominic 09:04

Yes.

Chris Angel Murphy 09:04

When we take photos together, they always end up looking like an engagement shoot. [Dominic laughs] And, like, you recently sent me a potato with our faces on it from one of those photos. And it was - it was beautiful.

Dominic 09:16

True friendship right here. [Dominic laughs]

Chris Angel Murphy 09:18

And I've always wanted someone to send me a potato. And I know, again, folks, this sounds so weird, but like, what is it called? Like, potato parcel?

Dominic 09:27

Potato parcel. Yeah.

Chris Angel Murphy 09:27

Yeah. I don't know. It was just one of those, like, weird things that you see online at some point, and then you think, "yeah, that's like, you know, for the person who has everything. Here's a potato with your face on it." But, like, it was perfect, yeah. Because you just sent that to me for Valentine's Day. And I was just like, aww.

Dominic 09:45

Yeah.

Chris Angel Murphy 09:46

But -

Dominic 09:47

Yeah, because I just happened to stumble upon it on, like, an Instagram ad or something. And I was like, who would appreciate this? [Dominic and Chris Angel laugh]

Chris Angel Murphy 09:54

Me! Um, something else folks should know about our relationship is, over the years, I've made really weird songs for us. And sometimes we turn those into, like, music videos that we'll send each other. And it's everything, [Dominic laughs] and it makes me happy and we're long overdue for one.

Dominic 10:14

We are, yeah.

Chris Angel Murphy 10:14

So I'm just sitting with it. But we have, like, weird expressions, like, I don't even remember how we started saying the, like, "Hey, have you hugged your pants today?" And the "I hug your pants," and I will literally hug your pants when I see you.

Dominic 10:29

Yes, I expect you, you know, on your knees, pants hugging. [Dominic laughs]

Chris Angel Murphy 10:33

Yeah, okay. Well, good thing this is marked as explicit, this podcast. [Chris Angel laughs] Folks, please just hang in and I promise, just stick it out here. But yeah, no, I needed people to know that, yeah, we have this really beautiful relationship. And there's a lot of parallels that we've had in our lives. And I think that's what's helped also make our bond stronger. You know? So.

Dominic 10:58

Yeah, agreed.

Chris Angel Murphy 10:59

Sweet. All right, well, all of that awkwardness out of the way. [Chris Angel and Dominic laugh] I'm glad that we could speak to the friendship and everything. So, what does being a man mean to you? And have you had any role models, or anyone who's helped you to shape what it means to be a man? And also, what has it been like to explore manhood? I'm just gonna throw a million questions at you.

Dominic 11:23

Yeah, that's fine. [Chris Angel and Dominic laugh] So that's a tough one for me, because I'm a little torn with it. Like, part of me feels like because logistically and like, medically, and realistically, I know I'm trans, so I shouldn't care about being in the binary or living my life in a binary way. But at the same time, at my core, like, I really just identify as male and as a man. So for me, I guess if I have to describe it, being a man is someone who is a leader, provides for his family, is emotionally strong, strives to be the best he can be, takes initiative. But at the same time, that doesn't mean that all other genders and identities and everything can't have those same qualities. That's kind of what I align to, I guess, when I think about what it means to be a man.

Dominic 12:19

I don't really have any role models, really, because I feel like also at my core, my personality and everything hasn't really changed since I transitioned. I feel like I have always acted the way that I act currently, my personality is the same. So there wasn't anyone who I really looked up to or used as a role model to like, shape me, it's just how I present now outwardly aligns better with how society views me, and therefore makes me feel better about myself.

Dominic 12:51

As far as, like, exploring manhood, the craziest thing to me that I still to this day don't understand is just the dynamics of relationships are completely different. [Dominic laughs] Like, and I - and there's so many other things that, um, I feel like I have to pay attention to or keep in mind, like, when I'm out and about. So for instance, if I'm walking alone late at night, and there is a woman nearby, I make sure to keep my distance because I don't want anyone to ever feel threatened by me or anything like that. And obviously, I like to make the joke, like, back when I was a lesbian, like, pre-transition, [Dominic laughs] you know, those were things I thought about, but like, the other side of it.

Dominic 13:33

And then also, just conversing with guys is completely different than conversing with females. Like, I transitioned in college, and when I came back in the fall as Dominic, I was in, like, a gender-neutral housing type situation, and the room next to me was like three dudes. Every time I talked to them, it was like, "Hey, man, what's up bro?" Total, like, locker room talk about women, and it was absolutely disgusting to me, because I'm used to not interacting with men in that way. And then to have those interactions, it was, um, shocking, I guess, in a way? Where obviously, I had seen on the news and in TV shows and everything, how guys talk to each other, but to just kind of like, experience that suddenly out of nowhere, it was a little jarring.

Dominic 13:33

And then also with women, like, I'll never forget. I started hormones, like in the spring semester, and then I came back in the fall as Dominic, like, after top surgery and everything. And I hadn't come out, like, to anyone, like, I was just Dominic. Like, suddenly, fall semester, here's Dominic out of nowhere. [Chris Angel laughs] And I was talking to this girl, like, outside our class. And she was complaining about period cramps. And she was going on and on and on. And then at the end she was like, "but you wouldn't understand because of you and your damn penis." And I was like... "Yep!" [Dominic and Chris Angel laugh]

Chris Angel Murphy 14:54

You're like, "actually - oh, wait." [Chris Angel laughs]

Dominic 14:57

Uh, yes, that is - yep, I, hmm, would never on understand period cramps. So yeah, just like, little back and forths like that have been interesting to navigate over the years. [Dominic laughs]

Chris Angel Murphy 15:08

I'm really glad you touched on all of that, because those are very similar experiences I've had. Like, those moments where it's like, I have these, like, internal jokes with myself, I always want to be able to turn to someone and be like, "well, this is awkward." Every time I see, like, a Girl Scout table, and I want to be like, "oh, yeah, I was a Brownie." And then they'll be like, "uhhh, sure."

Dominic 15:27

"Sure you were."

Chris Angel Murphy 15:28

Yeah. Because like, I'm - my identity has evolved to be trans, nonbinary, and queer, but people read me as a guy all the time, and sometimes they read me as a gay man. And that helps, honestly, because in those situations you mentioned with women, or femme-presenting people, that yeah, when all of a sudden you're you're seen as a threat, but like, that's like, what you were socialized to look out for? It is a mind fuck.

Dominic 15:57

Yeah.

Chris Angel Murphy 15:57

It's like, oh, shit, I'm the very thing that I was like, taught to fear by society.

Dominic 16:02

Right.

Chris Angel Murphy 16:03

Even though I, again, I don't identify as a man in my case, I'm so mindful and anxious when I'm in spaces where it's mostly women, you know. I'm thinking when I'm doing a spin class, or yoga or something, and just - even, hell, when I was in my social work program, it was the same thing. And then when, like, on one hand, one person would see me as a threat and you know, grab their purse and walk faster. And another would be like, "can you walk me to my car?" And I'm like, what the fuck is going on? But the locker room talk. And I - I feel like I have to say something about it, and to lean on my privilege, but like, it feels weird and it feels gross that I've been given more privilege, just, again, based on how people are perceiving me. And it's just not something I'm used to. It's been hard for me because I just don't feel safe calling a bunch of guys out saying this is disgusting.

Dominic 16:59

Yeah.

Chris Angel Murphy 17:00

Like, what the fuck are you doing?

Dominic 17:02

Right.

Chris Angel Murphy 17:03

Because I have to think about my safety too, and like, are they going to jump me and be like, "What, are you a faggot or something?" Because that, it very well could be, like, my reality.

Dominic 17:10

Yeah, exactly.

Chris Angel Murphy 17:11

So how do you deal with that pressure, and the locker room talk and everything? How has that been for you?

Dominic 17:19

I definitely - I don't respond to it. Like I, I don't, uhh. I just, I disengage very quickly when it happens, um.

Chris Angel Murphy 17:26

Yeah.

Dominic 17:27

It depends on how well I know the person. If I know the person better, I'm more likely to say something to them. Like, I remember I was in the office just talking to, like, a bunch of guys. And one of the guys is around my age and I'm friendly with him, we're younger. And he was saying how, oh, he's going to Vegas, and he's gonna hook up with this tranny and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, "Dude, you can't say words like that. Especially like, we're in - one, we're in the office, so that's like, huge no-no, what what are you even thinking?"

Chris Angel Murphy 17:54

Right.

Chris Angel Murphy 17:54

If you guessed that I was about to do a voiceover, you guessed correctly. Great job there. [Chris Angel laughs] Um, okay. Oohoohoo. Let's go on a bit of a journey together. The T slur is an abbreviation of "transvestite." There's been debate over the years to decide if it's a term to reclaim or if it's hate speech. People like RuPaul have used it a lot, so many who watched Drag Race or Project Runway early on may be familiar with it as a result. Because of this, folks like Lance Bass thought it was okay to use because it was normalized for him, though Lance later apologized after learning it wasn't acceptable. There are trans activists and drag performers who advocate for and against the use of the term.

Chris Angel Murphy 18:46

Present day, it's okay for people to reclaim the term and embrace it as an identity for themselves. However, people outside of the community should caution against using it and perhaps default to saying something like "T slur" instead for any educational purposes. Part of the controversy with RuPaul is he said, and this is a direct quote, "I believe that everybody, you can be whatever the hell you want to be. I ain't stopping you. But don't you dare tell me what I can do or say. It's just words. Yeah, words do hurt. You know what? You need to get stronger. You really do. Because you know what, if you think - if you're upset by something I said, you have bigger problems than you think." End quote. He also had criticism for repurposing the term "shemale" spelled S-H-E-M-A-L-E into "shemail" spelled M-A-I-L. However, it did end up getting removed from his show.

Chris Angel Murphy 19:49

Friends, I think this points to a larger debate of whether or not drag performers fall under the transgender umbrella at all, and thus if RuPaul can die on the hill of defending the T slur. When I was first learning about the community years and years ago, the transgender umbrella did include drag performers, cross dressers, and more. I couldn't find any good present day representations of that, but all of that to say, at the time of this recording, I'm not really sure if communities like drag performers and cross dressers still fall under the trans umbrella. I think it depends. What about drag performers or cross dressers who end up realizing they are, in fact, transgender? That feels more clear. Otherwise, I honestly don't know. I'm going to have to keep researching because I think it's something interesting to explore further. For now, back to the conversation.

Dominic 20:52

"But two, that's like, completely inappropriate. Like, use, use proper language, [Domnic laughs] like." So I took that as a moment to educate, but at the same time, I do know him well enough where I can guarantee it went in one ear and out the other. And my words mean absolutely nothing to him, because that's just his personality. And I'm still gonna say it because I feel compelled and I need to, especially because I do have a good relationship with him at work. But at the same time, if I don't know someone, I have those same fears that you do. Like, I don't, I don't want it to maybe completely break a relationship that I'm trying to build, for instance, but at the same time, I, I do want to educate people kind of where I can. Yeah, it's a, it's like walking on eggshells, I guess, you know. It could go south.

Chris Angel Murphy 21:45

Yeah, it's really tricky, because there's just such a focus on manhood. And like, all of what comes with that in our society and the expectations and, yeah, if you're not living up to that, then what? You know, like, "oh, are you soft or something?" [in a sing-song tone] Toxic masculinity. [Dominic laughs] Our next video coming out now. Um.

Dominic 22:06

Yeah! Ooh, I like it. [Dominic laughs]

Chris Angel Murphy 22:08

I love it, though. I love our, I love our relationship.

Dominic 22:10

Me too.

Chris Angel Murphy 22:11

We both identified as lesbians, L-O-L, for a minute, as part of our journey. And I will just note, that's not everyone's journey, um. However, I think you and I had a challenging time finding language for how we felt about ourselves. And you're nodding. So, I'm curious, how has your identity evolved over the years? And what kind of language did you find yourself using throughout the process?

Dominic 22:40

Yeah, so, I actually genuinely have you to thank for even giving me the knowledge of it. Because until you came out as trans to me, like, I had no idea that it was a thing. It was all those, like, thoughts and feelings that I had over the years, and then when you told me what you were doing, I was like, "Wait a second." And that's why, like, I forced you to talk to my mom on the phone a bunch of times, because I was trying to gauge her reaction to it. [Dominic and Chris Angel laugh]

Chris Angel Murphy 23:06

Wait a minute!

Dominic 23:06

We really - I talk about you, I talk about you all the time. [Both still laughing]

Chris Angel Murphy 23:09

This is news to me!

Dominic 23:13

What I, like, tell people, you know - because kids are coming out as trans, especially, like younger and younger, and a lot of that does have to do with the media and everything talking about trans people more often. But back in the day, when we were transitioning, like, it wasn't, wasn't really talked about. Like, you could find some sources on it and whatever. But there really wasn't a lot of information about it. And, um, so really, I had no idea that it was even a thing until you brought it to my attention. That literally was life-changing for me. [Dominic laughs] But as far as my, like, identity over the years, yes, I did come out as a lesbian when I was 14. Because at that time, I was thinking, "okay, like, I'm attracted to women. So, logically, I must be a lesbian." [Dominic and Chris Angel laugh] Like, my logic was, back then, was very basic at 14, you know, like, I only knew about like, bisexual and lesbian or gay. So that's all I knew.

Chris Angel Murphy 24:10

Well wait, how did you even learn about those terms?

Dominic 24:13

So - that's a good question! So, when I was a freshman in high school - and maybe this is embarrassing for my education. But I went to a school play, and a girl - I was like, talking to my friends and they introduced me to a girl who they were friendly with. And the girl hit on me and like, wrote down her phone number and like, ripped it off and like, handed it to me from like, from the playbill and everything. And I was so excited. And I like, didn't really know what these emotions meant, because it was the first time I had any type of like, I guess, kind of romantic thing go on for me. And then, during that conversation at the school play, whatever, she had told me that she's out as gay. And I was like, I don't really know - like, I had heard of it, but I wasn't really aware of what it meant.

Dominic 25:00

But then after she gave me her phone number, and I was like, "Wow, I'm hot shit right now." [Chris Angel laughs] I went home, I went home and I researched it because I really, I really didn't know. Like, my school, they didn't talk about anything LGBTQ, and really just LGB, until I think your junior year of high school. So, I was a freshman, so I had really no knowledge of anything related to it. So that was really the first time, and then I was like, oh, wait a second. So I think I might have come out as bi for like two weeks, and then I was like, you know what, like, I don't care about dudes. [Dominic laughs] You know.

Dominic 25:37

That was high school. And then you came out and told me you were transitioning and going through all of that, and I started researching it. And then I realized, like, oh, I'm, I'm trans, trans too. Here I go. And in the beginning, I definitely identified, like, as transgender or like, FTM, or a trans guy.

Chris Angel Murphy 25:59

FTM is considered an outdated term. It would be the letters F, T, and M together. Sometimes instead of the T, it would be written with the number two, meaning "female to male." Sticking within the gender binary, we saw the same thing with trans women. So it would be MTF, or M2F, and it stood for "male to female." This was largely the language we used before we made the recent switch to "assigned female at birth," AFAB, or "assigned male at birth," AMAB.

Dominic 26:34

And I felt that that was an easy way for me to find other people like me. But then, at the end of the day, like, as I kept transitioning, or going through the process, really, I kind of - I didn't, I don't know. Like, I didn't, I knew that I didn't want to be seen as trans for the rest of my life. And knowing that it was possible to transition and then just live my life like a guy, and no one be any wiser to that, that started to become really appealing to me, because that's ultimately what I wanted. I'm not really, like, an activisty type person. I was never, like, going to a ton of pride events or doing anything like that. I just kind of wanted, like, that boring, like, white picket fence type life. [Chris Angel laughs] And then, like, the trans thing kind of threw it for a little bit of a loop.

Dominic 27:25

But so now, having, for my purposes, fully transitioned, like, what I would consider a full transition for myself, I identify as a man now. And I think relatively quickly, like, within a year or two of transitioning, that kind of trans identity went away a bit. And it really just became, you know, this male identity, I guess, that I have now.

Chris Angel Murphy 27:46

Yeah, you're just - you became Dominic.

Dominic 27:49

Yep.

Chris Angel Murphy 27:50

I mean, okay, so first off, we're gonna have to back up a minute. So, [Dominic laughs] you took me on a roller coaster of emotions. They were very strong. I, like, imagine Mariah Carey, like, singing in the background, like, you've got me feeling emotions. Um, you - and I didn't go grab it from my closet, because I didn't want to embarrass you - but you wrote me a really thoughtful note, back in the day.

Dominic 28:12

Did I? I don't remember writing that.

Chris Angel Murphy 28:14

Yeah, I know. Well, you were thoughtful.

Dominic 28:17

Wow, look at me, younger me! [Chris Angel laughs] Go younger me, I had no idea.

Chris Angel Murphy 28:22

You wrote me a letter in the mail. And you, you sent it to me, and basically just saying that because of me - just everything you had just said a minute ago, that because of everything I'd shared with you and all of that, that it gave you, like, that permission to be and explore who you are and everything. And it, it touched me so much, and I remember ugly crying. But then you quickly took me on a new emotion because I didn't know you're throwing me at your mom to be like, [Dominic laughs] "Okay, mom, what do you - what are you gonna do here?" Your mom and I, we don't, like, talk nearly as much as we did for a bit there. And I've always had, I felt, like, a good relationship with her. Obviously, I don't know what she says behind my back, but now you can tell me.

Dominic 29:02

She loves you. She's so fond of you. [Dominic laughs] I told her you're coming to the wedding, and like, if I could photograph her face at that moment, because she wasn't sure if you were coming. She, like, I've never seen her so excited to see someone. And she's like, "I'm gonna stay Saturday night, and then Chris Angel and I can hang out, and we'll talk!" And I was like, alright mom, like, my friend, not yours. [Chris Angel laughs] She's very excited to see you. [Dominic laughs]

Chris Angel Murphy 29:27

Aww. It's gonna be good to see you both, because it's been long overdue that my ass is paying to, like, see you, so.

Dominic 29:31

Yeah. [Dominic laughs]

Chris Angel Murphy 29:32

Finally doing it. Yeah, it only took you getting married. It's fine.

Dominic 29:35

It's fine.

Chris Angel Murphy 29:35

That'll be really great, and I'm, I'm happy to hear that. And you know what, like, it reminds me of two episodes ago, I had a guest on named Katrina and we talked about something called a "safety pause." And that's what you're reminding me of is just, like, those little things that we do to test if someone's safe. Like, can we come out to them? Can we share something really vulnerable with them? So, I'm glad you almost threw me under a bus basically, because if that was, like, a way to help everything, like, your relationship with your mom, that's fine. It all, it all worked out, thank goodness. I'm glad that you had, like, a way that felt safe to you of approaching that conversation with her.

Dominic 30:17

Yeah, yeah, it was - because you know, it's different when your own child comes out as trans. Completely different, right? But - and my mom, I mean, you know, my parents are the most liberal people you'll ever meet anyway. I wasn't really concerned about it. But I knew she had never really - I mean, I'm sure she had heard about it, but she wasn't, like, well versed in anything trans related. So it was kind of like - [Dominic laughs] and I apologize to use you in that way. [Chris Angel laughs] But it was kind of like, her, like -

Chris Angel Murphy 30:45

Use me, baby. It's okay. [Dominic and Chris Angel laugh]

Dominic 30:48

Your listeners are gonna be like, what?

Chris Angel Murphy 30:49

I know, this is just how we talk to each other.

Dominic 30:51

I know, I can't help it. Um. [Dominic and Chris Angel laugh] The uh - but yeah, it was kind of like her, um, I want to call it, like, initiation into kind of how transitioning goes for some people, as like, an entry point for me to be like, "so, see how successful this has been? [Chris Angel laughs] Well, [Dominic laughs] let's see how much you don't mind. Here. Let me tell you a little fun fact about myself as well as your only child."

Chris Angel Murphy 31:19

When you did share about who you are with her - I mean, you started touching on it just now. But yeah, I guess like, how did that conversation go? Was it, like, emotional at any point? Or like, "okay, cool," or? Yeah. How did that go? If you feel comfortable sharing?

Dominic 31:38

Yeah, sure. So I was away at college. So I wrote my mom a letter. I didn't even address it to my stepdad because I knew he would be 100% comfortable with it. So I addressed it to my mom and I explained everything, and I also - because my mom, I have a similar personality to her, so I know her very well - I gave her resources of, like, "here are safe spaces to do your research, and don't go Google hormone replacement therapy and find some, like, random website."

Chris Angel Murphy 32:06

Yeah.

Dominic 32:06

So at the time, my mom, you know, she got home from work at like, 4:10. I think I got a phone call from her at, like, 4:11 and 35 seconds. She had read the letter. [Dominic laughs] And, you know, her first words out of her mouth was, you know, "I love you, I support you no matter what, blah, blah, blah." And we're talking and talking, and then like, one of the first questions she asked me was, "who are you going to have sex with?" [Dominic laughs]

Chris Angel Murphy 32:33

Oh, my gosh, mom.

Dominic 32:34

And I was like, "mom, I know you're in shock right now, [Chris Angel laughs] but that's not really one of the first questions I was expecting you to ask me." Um, it meant - she meant well.

Chris Angel Murphy 32:47

Yeah.

Dominic 32:48

And I think that she reacted in the best possible way she could have. I think that her reaction was more positive than negative. It was more just, "I support you, but also like, what the heck is going on? And like, what does this mean, and what is happening?" And she didn't want me to go on hormones for a while until I was back at home. I've heard 1,000 times from 1,000 parents, like, every parent has the same process, kind of, that - not every parent, but a lot of parents go through kind of the same thoughts and feelings that my mom went through. So it was nothing unreasonable or whatever. But yeah, she wanted me to wait to start on hormones because I had come out to her in October and I wanted to start on hormones in March. And she was like, "why don't you wait until the summer?" And I was like, "nah, I'm an adult, I'm gonna do it." [Chris Angel and Dominic laugh]

Chris Angel Murphy 33:36

Sorry, mom.

Dominic 33:37

Yeah, exactly. So, yeah. And then when I would come home from spring break, and Christmas break, and all of those, winter break, you know, she would try not to bombard me with questions. And I could tell that it was hard for her not to, but she did it, and I'll, like - looking back on it, although at the time, I was very stressed by her [Chris Angel laughs] and overwhelmed by her, looking back on it, you know, she did try her best. She really wasn't as overwhelming as it felt to me in the time.

Chris Angel Murphy 34:05

Yeah.

Dominic 34:06

But you know, it was a few too many questions, for me, all at once. [Dominic laughs]

Chris Angel Murphy 34:09

Yeah. What I see happening is, like, you're just trying to still come to terms with this yourself, because this is very new for you, and you're only a few steps ahead of her at that point. And so guiding her through that is a lot while you're still trying to figure out all of your piece, and yeah, like.

Dominic 34:26

Exactly.

Chris Angel Murphy 34:26

As much as I get, like the sex question, I see it as her trying to just make sure she understands you fully. And I imagine she was also worried about like grandkids and stuff. But like, yeah, the impact though, is this is really invasive.

Dominic 34:40

Right. [Dominic laughs]

Chris Angel Murphy 34:40

And like, that's - maybe take this one step at a time and like, let me tell you when I'm ready. Yeah.

Dominic 34:46

Yeah. Yeah, good intentions, but you know. And when people are frazzled like that, like, you can expect that people react maybe not in the way that they would have wanted to had they had the chance to, like, sit down and process it. But for something that big, especially at the time, because, like we talked about, trans really wasn't in the media, like, you didn't really know much about it, I feel like it even - it was even harder for her to process initially, because it was like, completely brand new to her, versus maybe like for, if I had come out today, you know, she might have had more awareness about it and known, like, "okay, this is kind of the process of what happens and it's safe" and all that.

Chris Angel Murphy 35:25

For sure. Yeah. Love the fact that she started with her love for you. And also, yes, it can be scary, because you want to hope that you're doing right by your child. And like, what if things aren't reversible? And like, are you sure? And so there's a lot of that that can come through. And, yeah, to just trust your kid that they've been doing the work to figure out who they are and what they need can can be a lot when you're, like, hardwired to worry about their safety.

Dominic 35:26

Exactly.

Chris Angel Murphy 35:30

So like, it can be hard for us to forget that when we're just like, "can you just be on board, please? Thank you."

Dominic 35:34

Right.

Chris Angel Murphy 35:34

"I have a world telling me [Dominic laughs] that I shouldn't exist and everything. So please be at least one person who's just loudly loving me."

Dominic 36:05

Exactly.

Chris Angel Murphy 36:07

You'd started touching on this a bit, and we'll definitely come back to your relationship with your mom later. But one of the reasons I'm so grateful that you have been open to doing this episode with me is because you are stealth or private, and thus, like, a hard person to track down. [Chris Angel laughs] How do you define "stealth?" And, let's start there, before I ask you a million questions on top of that.

Dominic 36:32

So to me, being stealth means that really the only people who know that I'm trans and about, like, my previous life as a woman [Chris Angel and Dominic laugh] are the people who, you know, I'm intimate with, which right now is just my wife, or the people who knew me pre-transition, or my doctors of course. That's, that's really what it means to me, I guess, if that answers it.

Chris Angel Murphy 36:58

Yeah. Like, like I tell all of my guests, [Dominic laughs] you answer however the hell you want. [Chris Angel laughs]

Dominic 37:04

Yes, that is my answer. Final answer. [Dominic laughs]

Chris Angel Murphy 37:07

As you pound the desk. Very manly. I love it. [Chris Angel laughs] Oh, my gosh, okay. Could you share more about what led to the decision of becoming stealth?

Dominic 37:20

You know, I know logistically, and realistically, and medically - I think I said this earlier - like, I know that technically, I'm transgender. I have done a lot of speaking engagements at high schools, and colleges, and businesses, and doctors offices. And it felt really great at the time to represent the community like that. But at the same time, there is a big part of me that just kind of wants to blend into society a bit, and not have to outwardly deal with the hate and kind of struggle that comes along with being trans. And I - like, it pains me to say that out loud, because I know that that is, you know, coming from a huge place of privilege. Like, to anyone in the world I just look like a normal heterosexual white guy. So I recognize the amount of privilege that comes along with saying that, and I, I almost don't feel comfortable saying it out loud. But I'm going to because I think it needs to be said, because there are other people like me who feel that way.

Chris Angel Murphy 38:18

Yes.

Dominic 38:19

But you know, in a lot of LGBTQ spaces, that is, um, tends to be frowned upon. Yeah, I mean, as I progressed, um, with my transition, it just became more and more important for me to start to blend. And then as I was doing these talks at businesses and everything, there have been a few instances where it has come a little too close to home. So - where someone who actually knew unexpectedly came to one of those things, and then I was like, oh, you might out me at a place that I don't want to know, I don't want them to know I'm trans. And it made me extremely uncomfortable.

Dominic 38:56

Also, once I started dating my now-wife, we haven't told her side of the family. They are a little bit more concer- they are conservative for the most part. So we are anxious, like, we're very nervous for them to find out that and hopefully they never do. But that also became a concern. The more talks and everything, and the more visible that I became, the riskier it made my life basically. Like the - or the life that I built for myself, I should say. And just over time, it became less and less desirable for me to live that kind of more open lifestyle. So I've kind of dialed it back over the years.

Chris Angel Murphy 39:36

Yeah. Well, I just want to say I think it's incredible that you shared your story at all, and that you are here today. And that I think it's valid because not all of us need to be activists, you know? Like, if you want to have a nice quiet life, like, I want that for you.

Dominic 39:53

Thank you. [Dominic laughs]

Chris Angel Murphy 39:54

Yeah, no, I mean, I, I don't - I want people to do what's gonna make them happy. I say that because we're kind of polar opposites, because I am, like, really loud and vocal about being trans and everything, but like, I don't look at you and go, "[sigh] damn it, Dominic, like, [Chris Angel and Dominic laugh] why aren't you out here fighting the good fight?" Because you have, in your own way, and you are just by, like, existing. To me, that's enough. You don't necessarily have to be in the parades and all that. And - there's like a million trains of thoughts trying to leave the station right now, and I'm realizing I didn't take my ADHD meds this morning, [Dominic and Chris Angel laugh] so that probably is why.

Dominic 40:29

That's okay!

Chris Angel Murphy 40:30

Forgot. Better do that really soon. Um, whoopsies. But - I am definitely leaving this in. Because this is just what it's like. But, for folks trying to make a decision whether or not they may want to go stealth or be private about who they are, what would you want to say to someone, to, yeah, someone considering that to offer support in making that kind of decision? And is there anything that was helpful for you?

Dominic 40:55

Yeah, I think it comes down to, like, determining the life you want to have, and how comfortable you feel about - again, this sounds, like, really bad to say out loud, but like - how comfortable you feel living in a potential day-to-day where someone could harass you, and all of that. I really commend people like yourself, who are really more of the activist style and can kind of handle that. It's just not really, you know, the life that I wanted to have. But it's also difficult to see. It's like, you need the visibility, because obviously, change can't happen without that visibility, and that activism and everything that goes along with it.

Dominic 41:35

But then when you're researching, transitioning, and that whole process and everything, you're only really, a lot of times, you're only really seeing that side of it. So then you start to kind of think to yourself, like, well, am I, am I doing something wrong by just wanting kind of that simpler, quieter life? So I guess what I would say to that is, um, do what's best for you. Don't worry about maybe what you visibly see as, like, the normal path for trans people or whatever, you know, whatever you're looking for. Like, do ultimately what is best for you and what you think will make you the happiest. And that really is what it comes down to. Like, people should just - kind of what you said, like, I just want everyone to be happy with whatever path they choose. And they shouldn't have to worry about, you know, how society will impact that or not.

Chris Angel Murphy 42:24

Yeah. Something that came up in a previous conversation, too, was that there were different pockets of the LGBTQ+ community that you were in when you were along the journey of discovering who you are and everything. And I'm wondering if you could share more on, like, what kind of events and things you used to participate in, and why you felt it was best for you to like, leave those spaces.

Dominic 42:54

So, back when I was a lesbian... [Chris Angel and Dominic laugh] Sorry, I'm just gonna start every answer with that.

Chris Angel Murphy 43:01

We're gonna just be super dramatic. [Dominic laughs]

Dominic 43:04

Back 19 billion years ago -

Chris Angel Murphy 43:07

Jeez!

Dominic 43:07

- when I was a lesbian. I don't know, I'm making up an age. I could be whatever age I want.

Chris Angel Murphy 43:11

I mean, I was going to at some point be like, just so folks know, as like, a reference point, I'm going to be 35 this year, and you just had a birthday. So what age do you want to tell people, Dominic? [Chris Angel and Dominic laugh]

Dominic 43:27

So 19 billion isn't accurate, you don't think that's a good-?

Chris Angel Murphy 43:29

No, I don't.

Dominic 43:29

Okay. I'm 32. So, yes.

Chris Angel Murphy 43:30

Great. Okay, that's what we're going with. Good. [Dominic and Chris Angel laugh]

Dominic 43:35

Anyway, so back when I was a lesbian, [Chris Angel laughs] I, you know, I, [Dominic laughs] I used to go to like - I mean, I didn't go all the time, but I would go to, like, Pride events, or like, in college I went to, like, the Rainbow Center, the LGBTQ center that we had. There were a few - like, my high school kind of had an LGBT group, but kind of not because it was like made fun of. So I would occasionally - I went to like, a social group for LGBT kids. Like, I did go because I felt like I had a community, and I felt like it was a really easy way to make friends. Like, it's hard to make friends at any age. But I felt like it was like, okay, I know these people are going to accept me because they're like me.

Dominic 44:17

So I would do a lot of that. And I, when I came out as trans, I really tried to focus on finding, like, trans-specific events and groups and everything. But there weren't any. And when I, I just stumbled upon this online forum slash chat room, it was called the Men's Room. It was just a bunch of trans guys. And that group to me was really pivotal for my transition, because these guys, they got me into, like, really good doctors, and they had a ton of knowledge, because I was having a hard time, like, even finding an endocrinologist that would take me for hormones. I'd call an endocrinologist office and I'd say, like, "Oh, do you take transgender patients?" Or "do you do hormone replacement therapy for trans people?" And literally they would hang up on me -

Chris Angel Murphy 45:05

Oh my God.

Dominic 45:05

Or one lady even yelled - I'll never forget this - she yelled, "no, we don't deal with those people" and hung up on me. And, like, actually yelled! [Dominic laughs]

Chris Angel Murphy 45:14

What the fuck?

Dominic 45:15

It was just like, okay. And then one time, I thought I had finally found a doctor, and they claimed that he had a six month long waiting list. And I was like, fine, I'll get on the waiting list. And I called every single month, and every single month, they said, "no, it's still six months." And then after three or four months, I finally got someone else on the phone. And that person that's - just said, like, "no, no, he retired like a year ago."

Chris Angel Murphy 45:42

What the hell?

Dominic 45:42

And I was like, So what waiting list have I been on? [Dominic laughs] There's no other doctor, I don't understand." I even, through this Men's Room, I drove literally 10 hours to numerous states away to go to a support group that was specific to trans guys, and just to like, meet another trans person in person. So like, I felt like I was doing kind of everything I could do to, like, meet other LGBTQ+ people. But then as I started transitioning, and like, blending into more of the heteronormativity of society, it, like - everything kind of changed. Like, I started to feel like I lost that sense of community.

Dominic 45:42

And I think we touched upon this already a little bit. But I started having slightly more, like, negative experiences in the LGBTQ spaces, and it made me pull away. Like, I felt - not unsafe in any way, because I don't want to give off that impression, but just unwelcome. Because when I pass, and -now that I pass, rather - and if I go into those spaces, everyone's just thinking, like, "alright, well, what's this heterosexual guy doing here? Like, he shouldn't be here." Or early on in my transition, when I was more out as trans, I would hear a lot of people in those spaces saying, "well, the T shouldn't be in LGBT, like, you need to leave" and all of that. So it became a very unwelcoming environment, which was very upsetting to me at the time, because I just, I didn't know where else to go. So I felt like I was transitioning, because that's what I needed to do for me, but then completely losing the community that I had built most of my life on at the same time.

Dominic 46:24

You know, I - and no one's wrong for seeing me and going, in an LGBTQ space, and thinking like, "what's this heterosexual guy doing here?" Because ultimately, that's how I want people to see me. So it's a little conflicting. You know, it does give me that kind of lost community that I had for so long. So, then, you know, over time that has caused me to kind of pull away from that community completely.

Chris Angel Murphy 47:44

So, [Chris Angel laughs] we both identified as lesbians.

Dominic 47:48

[Dominic and Chris Angel laugh] Now you got an accent!

Chris Angel Murphy 47:54

I don't know what happened. I meant to just lower my voice, and then this -

Dominic 47:59

I love it. Please keep that in because I need all of your listeners to hear whatever the hell that was. [Dominic laughs]

Chris Angel Murphy 48:07

It slipped out on another episode, I can't even remember what happened right now off the top of my head. And I was like, well, there's no going back now.

Dominic 48:15

That's it.

Chris Angel Murphy 48:15

Oh, I did my, like, movie...

Dominic 48:18

Oh, yeah. I know what you're talking about.

Chris Angel Murphy 48:19

"In a world" kind of voice.

Dominic 48:20

Yes.

Chris Angel Murphy 48:20

Okay. That's what happened. Oh, my gosh, anyway, it's fine. Yeah, I don't even know what the hell that was. That's fine. We'll leave it. Okay. I know for me - and this came up in my episode Jaffe, for folks who listened to that, but - we started to broach toward the subject of what happened when I came out and broke away from the lesbian community. And part of it was that people - it was like, quote-unquote "friends" vandalized my car, all sorts of bullshit went down. And it was horrible, because at the time, there was a trans person who had just been attacked, because he was at a school, another college campus just a few hours or so from me. And I'm not going to, like, take everyone through the horrifics of it, but he was physically assaulted and left with, I think, permanent injuries.

Chris Angel Murphy 49:16

And I was always wondering when I was going to be next, because just like you did, you know, I - and to this day, I still share my story. And I've always just wondered, like, when am I going to regret that? And, like, when am I going to get attacked for it or something? And so, when I came out one day, and like, after work, and saw that my car was vandalized, I mean, yeah. So like, finding out that it was my so-called friends, and there's like, a whole longer, like, story here to this, but that really hurt.

Dominic 49:44

Of course.

Chris Angel Murphy 49:45

And then I realized, I wasn't welcome in the lesbian community anymore. And I mean, it made sense because it's not the identity I was carrying or using for myself. But gosh, the ejection from that was just so harsh and so quick, and I had nowhere else to go yet, that it was devastating. Like, I lost - I mean, and at the same time my family kicked me out of my home because my beard was coming in. So I, I was devastated. I was gutted as a human, it was very dark period for me. And those would have been the couches I would have been surfing on, but they weren't available. So, yeah, navigating homelessness and everything in that was, was just brutal. So like you said, trying to go to the lesbian clubs anymore, any of it, it's just like, everyone just, like, sharply would look at me and just be like, "What the hell are you doing here? Like, this isn't your space." And it's like, well, I kinda was you for a hot minute.

Dominic 49:45

Right? [Dominic laughs]

Chris Angel Murphy 49:53

Yeah, it's like, yeah, did similar-? Yeah, I guess I'm wondering, like, if similar things happened for you? Like, how it felt for you to lose the community, or if there was just anything else you wanted to share about that?

Dominic 50:52

You know, it's, it's disappointing to be a - and again, no one's doing anything wrong by this, because ultimately, this is what I wanted, right? It's, like, the consequences of my actions. [Dominic laughs] But you know, yeah, it just, it just really sucks to, like, think that oh, it says LGBTQ+, right? And you think, like, okay, I'm in the T, so I must be welcome here. And then reality hits, and you're like, oh, like, no, in a lot of these spaces, I'm not. You know, over the years, I would say, as more and more people are starting to transition, I do see a lot of LGBTQ spaces having significantly more T people in it, which has helped. But then at this point, like, I'm so far removed, and so far gone from it that I, like - and then because I'm stealth, like, I don't - I guess I, there's an internal part of me that wants to go back to the community and, like, be involved, but at the same time, like, it conflicts with the life I have built now, so I don't feel like I can do that anymore.

Chris Angel Murphy 51:53

Yeah. And, well, I guess the only thing I would love to push back on gently and lovingly, baby - [Chris Angel and Dominic laugh] um, just always have to make it weird and awkward. Um, but, is that - this idea that, like, you don't belong in the spaces. Like, I do think, internally in our community, just broadly, the LGBTQ+ community, my hope is that we can learn to I want to say assume positive intent, that you're not trying to enter a space to necessarily be this, like, gross cis man here to try to hit on the lesbians or something, or convert them, right? But rather, maybe there's a reason you are there, because you're trying to be a patron and show allyship by, like, supporting a lesbian owned bar or something. Or that, yeah, the - holding complexity for that maybe you are a trans guy, or maybe you could be pansexual, all of that.

Chris Angel Murphy 52:51

But, like, we can make snap judgments within our community. And, gosh, all the years I even went to different Pride celebrations, there was like, anytime there was a couple that was perceived to be straight, I mean, the tension of that feeling of being unwelcome. Like, I could feel it, and I wasn't even part of that. And I always felt horrible, because it's like, we don't know their story.

Dominic 53:15

Right.

Chris Angel Murphy 53:15

We don't know what's going on. We don't know how they identify, really. I mean, we're assuming they're this straight couple, but that's, like, really our problem that we think that. And so just holding space for complexity that whether they're an ally or not, or whatever - unless it's, like, a dedicated space that we're saying it's only a certain group tonight or something, like, and that's it because I do think it's important for sub-communities to have their own safe spaces to process stuff, to be in community with each other, etcetera.

Dominic 53:46

I agree.

Chris Angel Murphy 53:46

However, I wish we could extend some kindness and curiosity and trust that, like, people are there who need to be there or who want to be there. So I hear you, and I'm gonna guard dog for you because I think it speaks to a larger issue within our community.

Dominic 54:00

Yeah, no, I agree. And, and it's tough. Like, I really struggle with those thoughts and feelings, too, because I get it. Even just using your example, or your experience, rather. Like, for people who maybe have grown up as gay and then get harassed and their car totaled. Like, sure, like, I can totally get why you see a heterosexual perceived male come into your space, and then you feel uncomfortable by that. Yeah, I can totally understand that. But it's just like you said, like, kind of having that - maybe assume positivity and assume positive intent, you know, when you see someone like that, I think will be important, is important.

Chris Angel Murphy 54:37

Because we just had Trans Day of Visibility not that long ago, and I also hosted a really awesome panel for it. If folks haven't seen that yet, I'll go ahead and link it in the episode. There's a lot of vocal trans folks saying visibility isn't always great because it doesn't also assure safety. This morning, I literally slapped a new bumper sticker on my car that I created, and it has the intersex-inclusive rainbow flag on it and it says "say gay, say trans." And I was terrified, I was kind of trembling as I was putting it on my car because I've never - like, you talked about, like, someone's car getting totaled or something. Lke, I've never put that kind of stuff on my car before because I can't afford to deal with if someone's going to vandalize it, if someone's gonna, like, I don't know, get road rage with me. I'm terrified.

Chris Angel Murphy 55:30

And again, I know I have this privilege that I didn't earn. And that feels gross and all the stuff that we've already discussed. But I don't think - I, I don't know how much it will save me from that. I don't know what I'll do if and when something bad happens as a result of this. But I do know that, you know, being in Denver now and also having been in Los Angeles, these have been arguably more progressive spaces. When I see other people do it, I think, ugh, I just gotta get my shit together and do this. I got to do this because I want to be visible because what it does - like, and even in our story, you know, of how it helped you to learn about the trans community. It means a lot when - because I know what it was like for me to read books, and Leslie Feinberg gave me that permission, and helped me awkwardly figure out about the community.

Chris Angel Murphy 56:16

So, I guess all of this awkward rambling to say that I do think visibility is important. And also, we got to figure out what to do to make it safer for folks, because it just comes with so much, and not all of it's good, because I'm constantly fearing for my life, and that's not a great feeling.

Dominic 56:35

Definitely not.

Chris Angel Murphy 56:37

But I can't stop doing it, because I'm like, but we need people to be visible!

Dominic 56:41

Yeah. And I, you know, like, part of me wishes I could be, I want to say, as great as you are, but. [Dominic laughs]

Chris Angel Murphy 56:46

Oh my God, no. I am not trying to flex. I - that's what I'm saying, I am scared and terrified. I have no idea what I'm doing. And -

Dominic 56:52

Yeah.

Chris Angel Murphy 56:53

Yeah.

Dominic 56:54

Yeah.

Chris Angel Murphy 56:55

Like you said, you used to do these speaking engagements, and you would share your story, and you've already touched on kind of what inspired you to stop. And what's also cool about you, but I'm also not trying to put pressure on you, is that you and your mom actually co-run an LGBTQ+ support group. How do you deal with the tension of knowing that at any point, a coworker could walk in, someone else from your life could walk in? You know, do you think there's going to be a point at which you stop co-running that group with your mom?

Dominic 57:30

Yes. [Dominic and Chris Angel laugh] I actually, honestly, between you, me, and all of your thousands of listeners -

Chris Angel Murphy 57:37

[Chris Angel and Dominic laugh] I'm not there yet, but thank you.

Dominic 57:40

Well, whatever, I just assumed the best.

Chris Angel Murphy 57:43

I appreciate it. We'll pretend that is the truth.

Dominic 57:45

Yes, it is in my brain. You're, like, semi-famous and everything. Um, I kind of wanted to stop running the group, like, a few years ago. And basically, when the pandemic happened - like, pre-pandemic we used to meet in person, pre-pandemic. But like, six months before I did have someone from my office come to the group. The amount of terror that I could see in the face of the person who showed up, I felt so awful. I mean, I was terrified too because I'm like, oh God, this is someone from work and no one knows I'm trans. And this wasn't someone who was, like, in my group or anything, like, I have a pretty big office and like, they just worked on a different floor. But I visually knew who they were. Honestly, like, out of nowhere, we just happened to be on a call together, but we really don't work together, but I know who they are.

Dominic 58:33

So yeah, just the amount of fear that I saw [Dominic laughs] in their face. And then after the meeting, they like, bolted, so I didn't even get a chance to, like, decompress with them and be like, "Hey, like, obviously, I'm not out to anyone at the office. Obviously, you're not gonna say anything to anyone at the office, right?" But they were just coming out, hadn't told anyone, and that kind of made it worse too, because I was like, oh God, this is your first experience, like, with a support group or anything, and you're seeing someone from work. Like, I felt terrible. Luckily, again, this person who I never really see, the next day at work we just happen to arrive at the same time.

Chris Angel Murphy 59:11

Oh, gosh.

Dominic 59:12

So it was like the stars aligned. So we got to have that, like, decompression time. And I was like, "Hey, like, don't even - I'm so sorry that that this interaction, like, happened, but I'm not going to tell anyone, like, your secret's safe with me essentially, as long as, like, my secret's safe with you and we have that kind of mutual understanding." Which, it did - the conversation didn't even necessarily need to happen. It was obviously understood. But I felt really bad about that. But that was the first time, and then once we went virtual, I had I think at least one or two other people reach out to us saying "hey, I'm interested in the support group" and one of them actually works, like, in my department, like, with my group, I work closely with her. So, she has no idea that I know because I wasn't going to tell her, like, "Hey, I work here too. And I know exactly who you are based on your unique name." [Dominic and Chris Angel laugh]

Dominic 1:00:02

It really terrified me because I had just really had that interaction with the first person, and then this other lady who is a gossip, and I would never tell her that I'm trans - it became a little too close to home. And her emailing me was the decision - that was, like, the cause of the decision that we made to never go back in person. Because now with Zoom, we don't post any of the Zoom information online, or whatever virtual chat program we use in the future or whatever. Like, we don't post any of that online. You have to email us for the link, and then we send it out to, like, a distribution list.

Dominic 1:00:38

But I get to kind of, like, do like, a vetting process. So depending on how people email us, I might email them back saying, "can you please tell me a little bit about yourself?" Because we've had, you know, people who try to come who shouldn't come over the years. So this has allowed us to even make it, like, an even safer space for like, selfishly for myself and my mom, but also for the people who do attend. Yeah, at some point, I think we'll definitely fully close down the group. But it being on Zoom, and me being able to kind of vet the group who comes and like, make sure that they're coming for the right reasons and have the right mindset kind of allows it to be a little bit more comfortable for myself.

Chris Angel Murphy 1:01:19

Yeah. Yeah. And it can be hard to find people to take it over and who take it as seriously.

Dominic 1:01:26

Yeah.

Chris Angel Murphy 1:01:26

Because like you said, you want it to be this safe space. And, like, I think of - because most of my experience is with PFLAG chapters, and I've been in a few of them, and they used me for their speaker's bureau. I actually have, like, another gig coming up this month, and I'm like, I'm a little rusty, it's been a few years. I hope I know what I'm doing. But yeah, it's gonna be through Zoom, and it's gonna be for the PFLAG LA chapter, so I'm really excited. But I've jokingly said in the past, and still say, to this day, that, you know, groups in particular like PFLAG are just kind of like a dumping ground for parents whose kids have just come out to them.

Chris Angel Murphy 1:02:02

But, I mean, it's not just that. It's allies trying to figure out how to support a loved one, be it a friend or otherwise. It's also couples who have been married for a long time, and like, then all of a sudden, maybe the husband realizes that he's gay, and then they're like, "well, now what? We've built this whole life together, does this mean, like, we divorce and I go, like, find someone else, or like, what?" And like, all sorts of things come and happen. So yeah, like, keeping that as safe as possible for everyone's really important. So I hope it doesn't have to close down, but I do understand if no one else is willing to take it over that sometimes that's just, like, a necessary step, and...

Dominic 1:02:39

Yeah, we have a lot of people who come for, like, a year to three years and then kind of go away. So we haven't, besides like, maybe two or three people, we haven't had any, like, significantly long term members who are still around. And I also, doing this for so long - having that parent-child dynamic to our support groups, like, because my mom is involved, it really makes a huge difference, because we have a lot of parents who come and they get to see kind of both sides of the story, basically.

Dominic 1:03:09

And my mom and I are very, like, we have a great relationship. And we are very open in the group about how she made me feel when I transitioned, and how I made her feel when I came out, and the crying that she did in the shower so that I wouldn't hear it, you know? Like, we're very emotionally mature, I guess, maybe in our relationship in that way. And we have that kind of open dialogue. And I think it's really, it's made a big difference. And if we were to really close it, that - like, it would be very hard to replicate that. And that's, it is what we're looking for, but it's, like, nearly impossible to find. So.

Chris Angel Murphy 1:03:44

[Chris Angel laughs] I love, you just, you - so, Dominic has this, like, huge ass mug with all of this, like, ice and is, was that water in the straw?

Dominic 1:03:53

Yeah, it was water in a straw because I'm weird.

Chris Angel Murphy 1:03:55

And he just, like, drank it weird at me. I don't know. [Dominic laughs] Like, he made really weird eye contact with me. Anyway. This is why I don't do a video podcast is because it just - anyway, it's fine.

Dominic 1:04:08

Yes.

Chris Angel Murphy 1:04:08

Oh my gosh. So, talking about your mom a little bit more. Because you're stealth, right? It kind of requires all of the people that you are open with about being trans to have, well, yeah, talks about boundaries and agreements around like, who can know and things like that. So, was it hard to have the conversation with her about like, "hey, so this is great, but like, also I need you to not tell people anymore?"

Dominic 1:04:31

Yeah, I, um, I guess I thought we had the conversation about it, and then when we - when I, like, first transitioned and everything, you know, I didn't want too many people to know but I also recognize that it's important for my mom to have people who she feels comfortable and can talk to about it because obviously, it's a huge impact to her life, in addition to my own but I had to be, uhh, respectful and like, aware of the impact that it also had on her life, especially because like, I'm an only child. And like, you know, when you have a daughter, you have all these, like, expectations of what's going to happen in your daughter's life, and then I was like, just kidding! I'm a guy, surprise.

Dominic 1:05:14

You know, but then, like, thinking back to like, when I was a kid, like, I'm Jewish, so I had a bat mitzvah, not a bar mitzvah. Well, tran- like, translating that in her head, it gets difficult for her, it really, it really does. And that's not to say she's not on board or anything, it's just difficult to have to translate constantly for her, like, in her head. For me, I don't seem to have as much of a struggle with it as she does. But she seems to really struggle with it. So I would say that we talked about it, and I thought she was only telling a few people, and she does still only tell a few people, but she's told significantly more people than I thought she has.

Dominic 1:05:52

She lives in a 55+ community and has made, you know, a ton of new friends since moving there over the past few years. These are people I'm never gonna meet. They're in a different state. Like, it kind of - she told more people than I expected, she only told people who she's really close to, and who she knows is going to be okay with it. Or, for instance, in the pool, she met this lady whose granddaughter had just come out as trans and she had no idea about anything about it, so my mom took the opportunity to help, like, educate and help her in that way.

Dominic 1:06:23

Although I didn't want her to tell the amount of people that she has told, I haven't really bothered to bring it up again, because I took a step back and I really thought about it and I said, you know, I'm never going to meet these people. These are 100% my mom's friends in a completely different state. If I meet them once, fine, but like, they have no impact in my day-to-day life. So if it makes my mom's life easier, and it really causes her to have, like, less stress in her day-to-day life, does it really matter to me if these people know? And when I really thought about it, I thought, you know what, it doesn't, because they're not meeting my wife's parents, or, like I said, have any impact on my day-to-day life. Maybe I meet them a few times throughout the course of my life, but otherwise, I'm never speaking to them. So, although my mom has told more people than I would like, you know, ultimately, I haven't bothered to bring up the conversation again, because it's not - it doesn't make a difference at the end of the day.

Chris Angel Murphy 1:07:18

Is that something that you're worried about for the official wedding ceremony coming up? Which, I should just explain to folks - because of the pandemic, you were to get married last year. You were going to have to move the ceremony and so you just got married anyway, but now you're like, having the ceremony this year. Were you worried at all during the first round, or are you worried about this upcoming round of like, what might happen or slip?

Dominic 1:07:43

Yeah, so I, I do have this friend who I met on a video game many years ago. And I mean, I've spoken to him for many years, obviously. And I reconnected with him - or I never disconnected, but like, I saw him in person I should say a few years ago. We were just talking and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then he said, like, "oh, I had said to so and so like, oh, you're my trans friend." And I was like, "dude, [Dominic laughs] like, I'm not your token trans friend," although I guess to him I am. But I was like, I'm not, I'm really not out to anyone anymore. So when I was thinking about inviting him to my wedding, I haven't messaged him about it. I, I'm torn on it. I feel like - like, I've known him since I was like 16. He was 14. He's an adult now. Like, we're both adults. And I feel like as an adult, he kind of has matured a lot over the years. And I feel like I can kind of talk to him as an adult and be like, "Listen, you can't." [Dominic and Chris Angel laugh]

Dominic 1:08:38

But I also intentionally - we made, like, a mock seating chart, and I intentionally put him at a table where everyone at that table just happens to have known me for long enough to know that I'm trans. If the worst-case scenario happens, uh, he, like, everyone else already knows that that table, so it's not a big deal. And I don't see him, like, talking to a bunch of people at a different table, because he knows literally no one else coming, except his girlfriend who's coming with him. So I was worried about it in the beginning, and then I was able to like, put together a table that I think will work. [Dominic laughs] So I'm less worried about it now. But that's really it for concerns for our wedding and stuff like that.

Chris Angel Murphy 1:09:15

And Dominic, you have a wife and a cute doggo, and you're hopefully buying your first home soon, fingers crossed, don't want to jinx it. But what kind of conversations have you had to have with your wife throughout all of this, like, when you met and as your relationship has grown?

Dominic 1:09:34

She has been a trooper, I will say, [Dominic laughs] considering she didn't really have, like, any involvement in the LGBTQ+ space before meeting me. When I told her I was trans I was expecting it to not be taken too well, because we had already gone on a number of dates. I, I'm a bad person, I will recognize this, but I waited too long to tell her, like, I really genuinely did. I should have told her sooner. I was kind of, like, I hadn't really dated too much since trans- buh, since transitioning. And I just like, it's a hard thing to navigate. Like, I don't know what the right time is, because if I put it on my profile somewhere, like, that knocks out so many people that maybe if they did get to know me they would be more open to it.

Dominic 1:10:24

So I took that approach, like, I was essentially stealth - but also because I'm stealth in my life, like, I couldn't put it on my profile, because then what if I see someone I know and who knows me, and then they're like, "oh, this is a fun fact I learned about you on the internet."

Chris Angel Murphy 1:10:37

Right. I don't know. Again, I would just gently nudge, like - and I know this is controversial. I feel like we have a right to decide at what point we want to disclose.

Dominic 1:10:47

Yep.

Chris Angel Murphy 1:10:47

I think it makes sense that before things might get more intimate that we might want to have a conversation about body parts and things like that, and what feels affirming and good. But for me, I've just chosen to say, you know what, I'm just going to be upfront about it in my profile, because by nature of my they/them pronouns anyway, people are like, "well, what's going on there?" So I feel like I kind of have to, but like, yeah, I - the anxiety of waiting for the right time and feeling like I'm lying, even though I know I'm not, and just all of that. And then I feel like I have to answer things differently, because stumbling awkwardly through trying to be as authentic as possible, like - for me, it just feels easier and better to just, like, come out with it strong in the beginning. However, for everyone, I think it's just, like, a super personal decision of making sure that, like, you feel safe, and all of that, too. So, for whatever that's worth, [Dominic laughs] hopefully you'll never have to date again.

Dominic 1:11:44

Hopefully! Well, because -

Chris Angel Murphy 1:11:46

You are married and everything but -

Dominic 1:11:47

Right. Well, now, because we're getting that second wedding, I like to joke and say, like, "oh, my future second wife." And then when, like, once we get married again, I'm gonna be like, "my second wife." And they'll be like, "oh, you've been divorced?" No. Just married twice. To the same person. [Chris Angel and Dominic laugh]

Chris Angel Murphy 1:12:03

Yeah, you just, you love her so much you're getting married again. It's great.

Dominic 1:12:07

Right? Exactly. But yeah, no, so she, uh - I'll never forget when I came out to her trans. I mean, I don't remember what I said at this point, especially because I was probably in such a daze with anxiety. But, you know, I came out to her, whatever. And I know she sat there and took a second to process it, and I, I literally said to her after - because it was in my apartment, we were sitting on my couch, and I said to her, "do you want to leave?" And she said, "no, I'm here, aren't I?" And I was like, oh, alright, you're here, you are here. Yes, you are physically here. [Dominic laughs] Yeah, I'll, like, never forget that response from her, because it just kind of validated like, no, like I - well, at the time, I like you for you, and that kind of doesn't make a difference to me.

Dominic 1:12:54

And then over the years, things have come up. So, really, the biggest one for us with navigating is, like, whether or not we're gonna have kids, and what that looks like, and how because there's obviously various, various ways [Dominic laughs] now open to us. In the beginning of our relationship she had said to me, "I have always wanted to adopt, that has always been something that I've, like, wanted to do." I would say, as we've gotten older, although maybe she wants to adopt at some point, she is more and more leaning towards having a biological child, which obviously creates some additional questions her family might ask [Dominic laughs] with the process and everything, so.

Dominic 1:13:36

I would say we haven't really officially decided anything right now. We're waiting another year or two just due to stuff going on in our lives before we really, like, make that final decision, but we do talk about it regularly. It's definitely something that either way she has to kind of process and - because it's not the way, you know, growing up you imagine it to happen, let's say. She struggles with it, definitely. It's hard also being the spouse of, like, a trans person, because there's not too many people you can, like, talk to about it, especially because I am stealth. And I, I do feel guilty for I guess lack of a better way of putting it, but for, like, putting her in that position to like, even have that anguish about it. Like, I feel, I feel really guilty about it, like, at my core. I know it's nothing that, like, I did wrong or like, you know it's just - the situation is the situation. But for me personally, like, it does make me feel really guilty that, like, I can't, like, provide for her I guess, like, the ease of biological children [Dominic laughs] for lack of a better way of putting it that could have happened had I just been born, like, biologically male. But again, you could be born biologically male and like, still not be able to have that happen naturally let's say anyway, so you don't know what you don't know or potential was always out there regardless.

Dominic 1:14:58

That has been probably, in regards to me being trans, probably the, the biggest hurdle that, you know, we'll have to face. Because then also, like, when you have a kid, like, when do you tell the kid you're trans? Like, you don't want a two or three-year-old going to grandma and grandpa who don't know and being like, "oh, Daddy said that blah blah blah" and grandma and grandpa are like, "uhh, what?" [Dominic laughs]

Chris Angel Murphy 1:14:59

Right, yeah.

Dominic 1:14:59

So I don't even have literally a single idea on how to navigate that, and like, when to tell a child and how do you ensure that they don't go telling people. Like, I really - that's one of those things that I think I'm just gonna, like, have to have my fingers crossed, and like, do the best that we can do, and maybe there'll be other trans parents who maybe are stealth like me who have, like, posted about it online by that point, because I really - I genuinely, I am completely lost on how to navigate that. [Dominic laughs] And I have no idea at all. But you know, I have a few years I guess to worry about that is what I keep telling myself until it sneaks up on me. [Dominic laughs]

Chris Angel Murphy 1:16:00

My - [Chris Angel laughs] my personality wants to be like, "well, welcome to the love doctor." [Dominic laughs] But I literally have a friend who runs a podcast called The Love Doctor, and I've been twice now, and she's been on this podcast, too, so I'm like, well, can't do that. But, no, I mean, it's a genuine concern. And that's why I come back to, at the end of the day, it's a personal decision, and I don't think you're tricking anyone, which is what some people's minds can go to. And you don't owe it to anyone other than to know it for yourself. And yeah, like you said, it's just this complicated thing, because it's great, scientifically, all of the different ways that we can have families now, not even just like adoption, like you said, but just scientific breakthroughs, like using one person's egg and, like, the other person can be a carrier of that egg and just all these other parts so that everyone has, like, a part in it, right?

Chris Angel Murphy 1:16:51

But yeah, there's just a lot to think about. And I know that part of it, too, is just, like, not wanting your wife's family to find out because of what could potentially happen, especially with them being conservative, and some of the things that you've told me in confidence that they've said that would give you pause for wanting to tell them in the first place. [Dominic laughs] So yeah, no, I hear that, that sounds really stressful. And I hope you're able to get the support and the space that you need to figure that out.

Dominic 1:17:21

Thank you.

Chris Angel Murphy 1:17:22

Yeah. I'm curious about if there's anything that you like about being trans?

Dominic 1:17:27

Proud maybe isn't necessarily the word that I'd use, but I am - maybe I'll use it, I'll use it for now and see if I can think of a better word - but I am proud, let's say, of the impact that I've been able to make on other people. So like, we've been talking about throughout the course of our conversation, like, you were really pivotal to my transition. I know that I have been that for a lot of people, especially with the support group and everything that my mom and I have. And I feel really good about being able to really help people. I want people, when they're transitioning, especially, to do it in a safe way.

Dominic 1:18:01

Like I, I want to show people that there is life after transition, because I was a very depressed kid, like, didn't really see a future for myself. And then I transitioned and, you know, you start to see more of the positives of life, I guess, as you progress through life and grow up and everything. But I feel like that has also made a big difference. So I, I am proud of the, of that part of it. And that's kind of where I think my - that's, like, where I internally battle with myself on a day to day basis, because I want that stealth, boring life, but also at the same time, like, I do, I do recognize the impact that I've made on other people, and I feel like that it's extremely important for someone to have. And I, you know, I do want to make that impact on people. So.

Chris Angel Murphy 1:18:52

Yeah, I mean, and selfishly, as your friend, I would just say that even if you didn't do all of that stuff, as far as the speaking engagements and the group you're running with your mom and all of that, that I would still be proud of you and that your life still has value, because again, like, knowing all of the conversations we've had across our friendship, and the dark places we've been in and shared with each other, it just makes my heart happy to know that you're happy. Like, if this quote-unquote "boring life" that you're leading was like, all you wanted, I am so fucking happy for you.

Dominic 1:19:27

Right.

Chris Angel Murphy 1:19:28

Because it's what you wanted. You, you're, you're living the life. Like I said, you know, you're on the verge of hopefully getting your first home very soon, and you're married and you have your annoyingly cute dog and everything. [Dominic laughs] And like, I'm just so happy that's, that was possible in your lifetime.

Dominic 1:19:46

Thank you.

Chris Angel Murphy 1:19:46

Because it could have been a different story for you. So yeah, I'm just fucking glad that you're here and you're living the life that you want to live.

Dominic 1:19:54

Thank you.

Chris Angel Murphy 1:19:56

Hell yeah.

Dominic 1:19:57

Hell yeah.

Chris Angel Murphy 1:19:58

Well! [Chris Angel laughs] We're getting all sappy with each other. It's great, um.

Dominic 1:20:04

We really are.

Chris Angel Murphy 1:20:05

I've almost ugly cried twice, and I - [Dominic laughs]

Dominic 1:20:10

I wasn't gonna say anything but at one point I was like, are you tearing up? [Dominic laughs]

Chris Angel Murphy 1:20:14

Yes! Shut up! Fine. Crying is good, release is good. It's just I am worried it'll take me a minute to stop, to be coherent.

Dominic 1:20:23

I can't, like, once I start crying, that's it.

Chris Angel Murphy 1:20:25

Well, I mean, voice dysphoria. I don't talk about this. And maybe this is a good place for me to say this before I ask you about your allyship tip to round out the conversation, but like, I experience voice dysphoria to this day.

Dominic 1:20:39

Really?

Chris Angel Murphy 1:20:40

I've luckily always had - and I'm nodding my head - I've luckily always had, like, a fairly lower voice? I was thinking about my early internet days when I'd have, like, calling cards and like, call my friends and like, trying to, like, force my voice lower and shit, because well, that's a whole story for another day, folks. I can tell you about the time I was Blake and catfishing people, but not today. Not today! Let's save that for another episode.

Chris Angel Murphy 1:21:04

Yeah, like, even to this day, and even with, like, how much testosterone has lowered my voice, I still have voice dysphoria. And one of the worst moments of it is when I do get emotional, because whether it's crying or, like, being really angry, my voice tends to want to go up higher, and then I hate it. And then, like, I can't do anything to get it to come back down, and it just gives me, like, horrible voice dysphoria. Even with, like, the podcast, I actually just had someone yesterday tell me that I have, like, a voice for podcasting. And I was like, thank you. And then I was thinking through.

Dominic 1:21:41

I think you do, like, it's really nice. [Dominic laughs]

Chris Angel Murphy 1:21:44

Well, thanks, baby. [Dominic laughs] Yeah. No, no.

Dominic 1:21:47

No, you do, you have a very - I don't know how to say, but you have, like, a very pleasant voice, to me.

Chris Angel Murphy 1:21:52

Thank you. Part of it, too, is like, sometimes our voices sound weird to us when we hear our own voice, and voice dysphoria is a thing. So I don't know, I guess I just wanted to offer that too, because even my previous guest from the last episode, Charlie, talked about it. And, yeah, I just wanted to honor that yeah, it's something that I struggle with too, and there's certain ways that manifests. So, all of that said, [Chris Angel sighs] just thank you for this conversation, and -

Dominic 1:22:22

Thank you.

Chris Angel Murphy 1:22:23

Yeah. Yeah, baby. [Dominic laughs] I love you. [whispering] I love you so much.

Dominic 1:22:32

[also whispering] I love you. It's a lot. Okay.

Chris Angel Murphy 1:22:34

[at speaking volume] If people are still listening, [Dominic laughs] what's one allyship tip you'd like for everyone listening to consider?

Dominic 1:22:38

Be open to others' paths that might not, like, align to your own. That's the best way I can put it, you know? Like, everyone has to transition in the way that's best for them, and that might not be the norm for maybe what people are seeing in the media or anything, but that doesn't make it wrong or, you know, it's still valid at the end of the day, like, people have to do what's best for them. So, that would be my tip. Be open to others' paths.

Chris Angel Murphy 1:22:39

Well, friends, I hope you enjoyed this non-traditional episode. It's got to be my favorite of the season because we were just deep in conversation and our history made for a rich discussion. Dominic, thank you again for your vulnerability in this episode and for being such a wonderful friend all of these years. I love you!

Chris Angel Murphy 1:23:29

Before I jump into the final three self-reflection questions, I wanted to offer some resources to any parents out there who are affirming or want to be like Dominic's mom. Each resource I'm recommending was because a mom fought for her kid and wanted to do more. PFLAG National is wonderful and there's 400+ chapters all over. If you don't have any near you, you could start one. There's also Mama Dragons, Mama Bears, and Free Mom Hugs respectively. Again, all started by moms, which speaks to the power of what one person can do. They all have varying resources that are worth checking out, including stuff that makes you want to ugly cry in the best way, like being a stand-in for weddings or other events. [Chris Angel sighs]

Chris Angel Murphy 1:24:20

Okay, final three coming at ya.

4. If I have a transgender friend and/or loved one in my life, do I make sure people know they are trans when talking about them or introducing them? Why?

5. Have I checked in broadly with my friends to understand their boundaries?

6. Have I ever dated anyone who is trans? If not, would I be open to it? Why or why not?

Chris Angel Murphy 1:24:53

Visit AllyshipIsAVerb.com for any resources and a full transcript of the episode. And remember, sometimes allyship means being open to others' paths.