Mon Malanovich-Gallagher
Do you talk over marginalized communities? In this week’s episode, Mon Malanovich-Gallagher (they/them) shares about being an LGBTQI+ speaker and facilitator and what some of their experience as an introvert can look like, including introducing the term “anchor.” Learn why they left Poland and the importance of language including identities that reflect our experience. We also discuss employment diversity questions and how data matters while recognizing the privilege of being able to answer as honestly as possible. Have you ever wondered why there’s gatekeeping within the broader LGBTQ+ community and subgroups? Mon talks about how we should be able to claim our own identities and that what we land on feels right to us as individuals without trying to fit any “standards.” We also discuss what it might look like to queer-ify relationships, an example of a supportive pronoun question, and being aware of our impact on and how we show up for marginalized communities.
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Full Transcript
Chris Angel Murphy 0:17
Well, hello there. My name is Chris Angel and my pronouns are they/them. Welcome to Allyship is a Verb, the LGBTQ+ podcast that explores and humanizes practicing allyship for the LGBTQ+ community and beyond!
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 0:38
Hi, my name is Mon Malanovich-Gallagher, and I use they/them pronouns.
Chris Angel Murphy 0:42
Mon is a speaker and facilitator, among other talents and skills, who incorporates the LGBTQI+ community and mental health into their work as much as possible. They deliver workshops, speak at panel events, and run mental health peer support groups. Some of the topics they touch on are LGBTQI+ inclusion, intersectionality, redefining relationships, allyship, and community.
Chris Angel Murphy 1:09
We're virtually hopping across the pond, as they say - [Chris Angel laughs sheepishly] ahh, yeah, um - as Mon is currently living and working in the UK. Most of my guests so far are sprinkled throughout the States and Canada, so I'm grateful to expand on the geographical locations represented on this podcast.
Chris Angel Murphy 1:29
I'm now going to give you three questions to think about while you're listening, and three more after our conversation to offer prompts for self-reflection.
Do I attend educational or speaker events for marginalized communities?
Have I thought about my identities recently, and if they still fit?
What kind of changes might I want to make to my relationships? How might I want to redefine them?
And with that, here we go.
Chris Angel Murphy 2:05
I love how beautifully and quickly you say your last name.
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 2:08
It's because I'm Polish.
Chris Angel Murphy 2:10
Oh, okay.
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 2:10
It's easy for me. [Chris Angel laughs]
Chris Angel Murphy 2:13
You identify as queer, nonbinary trans, an immigrant, a parent, and an introvert. Can you briefly share what those identities mean to you?
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 2:25
Sure. Well, there are quite a few. And, um, I think there's a lot to unpack. I think before we start unpacking those identities, I, I really, really, really appreciate that you ask about identities, because I think, um, most of the time we are not asked. Personally, I've only been asked a handful of times, and most of the time it was when I was dropping my child to nursery when they were very, very little. And you had a small child ask are you a mommy or a daddy? Are you a boy or girl? And you know, it was refreshing. And I think you asking this question is refreshing because a lot of the time our identities are being assumed for us and we're not asked. It's not being checked in with us. Um.
Chris Angel Murphy 3:09
Well, let's dive there. Let's dive there for a moment. Who's not asking you? Like, who do you wish would be in conversation with you about that?
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 3:18
I think, everyone. [Mon laughs] I think everyone who makes a difference in your life should ask a question, um, which is probably difficult. Like, I ask my kids, um, whenever we fill in a form - like, um, a subscription form or child club form, you know - "Are you a girl or a boy?" I ask her - she uses she/her pronouns - but I ask her, I check in with her. And partly I do that because I know that my own journey was not straightforward. I didn't arrive at they/them pronouns immediately. My labels and identities were not aligned with how I felt inside. It was partly because I didn't have the language. I was born in Poland, and Polish is a very binary language, so I was really, really restricted in finding the words that fit. But also because the society was imposing certain roles on me and no one was ever checking in when I was growing up.
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 4:17
And similarly these days, I still most often am be- am being taken for, you know, a butch lesbian, which, um, [Mon laughs] you know, I don't - I do not identify with it. Um, for a long time, I did have to use the word lesbian because that was the only term available to me. I think the beauty about language developing, and the beauty about people - younger and younger people - being able to experiment and explore their identities has to be reflected in how we approach people. We have to be asking those questions. So you know, I do welcome when companies, for example, include questions about, you know, gender identity, rather than the sex that you - the sex marker that is on your, on your passport. And I do welcome questions around all kinds of responsibilities even that may form someone's identity, like parenting. "Do you have caring responsibilities?" Like, these questions are essential for you to understand what makes a person whole, and what is important in their life. And therefore, you can relate to them better, and you can create more, um, genuine connections.
Chris Angel Murphy 5:28
Like for me, as someone who's trans and nonbinary as well, it's scary for me to look for new housing, to look for a new job, anything medical-related. And I worry that I don't always want to share with people how I identify, because I don't think they'll always get it right. Also worried about them discriminating against me. Um, I couldn't possibly know if, like, the staff are trained or not on that. And -
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 6:02
Mhm.
Chris Angel Murphy 6:02
You know, especially with frontline staff, there's just so many people who could get that wrong, you know, answering the phone or when I walk up or, or anything like that. So I guess, are there times that you don't want certain people, or people in certain positions, asking you about your identities?
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 6:21
Um, [Mon sighs] that's a very, very interesting question. I think there definitely was a time when I was very scared to admit, even to my closest team, and often even to my friends, how I identify and what I feel inside. And I think a lot of people will, um, identify with that fear. If you represent difference in any way in your life, um, you only really feel safe when you are among people who represent the same kind of difference. Diversity, inclusion - or the, the diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging, you know, [Chris Angel laughs] initiatives are so difficult because realistically, if you go into any company, any organization, predominantly you will see the workforce being white and being cisgender, being, um, straight, or at least appearing straight. And so, if you don't see yourself reflected in that community, um, it will be really hard for you to be your true authentic self. And we know that authenticity is so important in creating genuine connections. We know that it's so important in being given responsibilities, being trusted.
Chris Angel Murphy 7:38
[Chris Angel sing-songs] It is time for another Chris Angel monologue! [They resume a speaking tone] Oh, that was bad. All right, we're leaving it. Uh, a few things here. DEI, DEIB, JEDI, etcetera work has the same challenge the broader LGBTQ+ community has. There are various initialisms and acronyms. As a review, "initialisms" would be DEI, DEIB. And an "acronym" is JEDI because you can say it like a word. The company is essentially showing a commitment to work such as diversity, equity, and inclusion. Other letters you may see are belonging, justice, culture, access, and anti-racism. These initiatives inform changes in policies, hiring practices, staff training, awareness events, and more. Items like pay equity and benefits, having diverse candidates in the hiring pipeline, and that there are marginalized identities holding leadership positions. What a concept, right?
Chris Angel Murphy 8:41
The last thing I'll say here - and that was sarcasm. I don't usually use it, but like, that slipped out, so we're just, we're gonna leave it. But the last thing I'll say here is that companies are sometimes doing this work to quote-unquote "encourage people to bring their full selves to work." Some people like a work-life balance, or harmony, and don't want to bring their full, whole, or true selves. I don't have the answers here, so I'm not necessarily disagreeing with Mon, but I would just like to recommend that folks weigh the pros and cons of this. I think all of this is incredibly complicated when we're working under systems like capitalism, white supremacy, and beyond.
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 9:24
People sniff out, um, that you're pretending very, very quickly, and - and hiding who you are is a 24/7 job. There's no escape from it. Once you start, it's very hard to come out of the closet. And so [Mon laughs] I think, I think, uh, for a long, long time, definitely I was - I was scared, and I was, um, avoiding questions, and if there was a diversity, um, um, survey in the company, I would still not mark the answers according to who I was, or who I, who I felt I was at that time. The more support network I built in my personal life, the easier it was for me to be more open externally outside of my safety bubble. Part of it was that I knew that I had people who would not drop me no matter what. And if my work didn't work out, or if people in the office were, were not accepting of me, I would land on - on my feet, and I will hit the ground running, and I would find something else and I would have support. I think it's so, so important.
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 10:35
Uh, and we think about young people, for example, who are considering coming out. Having the support from their family and friends is really, really important in how they - how they develop as a human being. How, how they move through the world in future, as an - as a grown up, and I think that's something that cannot be underestimated. You asked me if I'm ever scared about being asked that question, and I'm not. But that's because I, I start a conversation by saying who I am. I no longer hide that part of me. So I will say my name is Mon, I use they/them pronouns, and usually this prompts questions around my identity. And I do welcome that curiosity, because without curiosity, there is no learning. And without learning, there's no understanding. And if there's no understanding, there can never be any acceptance, and if there's no acceptance, there's no inclusion. And so it goes, it's an - it's an avalanche.
Chris Angel Murphy 11:31
Yeah, that spiraled very quickly. [Mon and Chris Angel laugh] Yeah, so I guess what I'm taking from this is, let's ask, let's ask people about their identities, and also hold space that they may not want to share that with us, they may not be sharing the correct answers with us. And also think about, what are we using that information for, right? I know that a lot of folks can relate to applying to a job and being asked those - like, especially here in the States, they'll ask if you're a veteran, if you're disabled, if you need accommodations, things like that. But again, because of the fear, because of the stigma, because of the discrimination, all of those - those things, people don't always answer those honestly.
Chris Angel Murphy 12:18
It - part of it, too, is just, like, wondering what do places even do with this information? I don't want to be tokenized. And so I guess, because of your unique position, and the kind of work that you do, for those listening who see those and don't answer those honestly or skip them or whatever. How might you encourage someone to understand perhaps the importance of that, of, of sharing and, and showing up authentically? And what, what could that potentially lead to, in terms of like, I guess, specifically with like a workplace?
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 12:52
Well, I would never, ever, ever encourage anyone to share things that they were not 100% comfortable sharing. I think you need to be at a right place in your life and have the safety net, in order to do that. Whenever you want to share something that is - makes you different, and can potentially put you at risk, it's so important to put your own safety first. And other people may think you're being unreasonable, um, but it doesn't. It's not about them, it's about you. So you know, you need to find that in yourself. If you're not comfortable with it, just don't do it.
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 13:29
For people who are comfortable sharing their identity, who feel safe enough, and are in that privileged space to do that, I think it's really important to do because A) you're showing other people that we exist, and if you do not see yourself represented somewhere you cannot become. And so it's really important to have that positive role-modeling, um, to have that positive representation. And also in terms of companies, um, a lot of the time we hear companies saying, for example, with trans community, "Trans community is such a small community. There are so few people who are trans. Why should we make provisions for trans people, if we don't have anyone who identifies as trans in our company?"
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 14:14
Now, obviously, we know that, you know, if you do not create a space at the table for a person to come, that person will never come. So if you do not create space for a community in your company, that community will never feel safe enough to truly be in your company. It doesn't mean that the person representing the community will not join your company, but they will not show their authentic self. So you have to create that space for people to feel safe to - to be themselves. And, and so that's important, we know that, and so companies should start doing that regardless of whether they have representatives of different communities within their workforce. But, um, it does help to have those numbers. As sad as it is, the way our society works, the way most corporations operate, you know, it's good to have those numbers.
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 15:06
It's always most difficult to be the first one to come out, and the first one to say, "Actually, I am that minority you were talking about that doesn't exist in your company." [Mon laughs] But if you feel safe enough, if you're in position of power where you can do that, then it is really, really important to - to show that we are not. Because we are not a small community as a trans community. We are - there's more of us, and there always has been, but we just didn't feel safe to authentically show ourselves. I think that in itself will fuel that visibility. Visibility creates visibility, the more - the more representation you have, the more people feel okay being themselves. And so the representation that you create, uh, when you're authentic in the office, or in any space for the matter, will help people ask the questions that they need to ask to make correct decisions for your community, and for people who represent the difference that you do as well.
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 15:06
There's a lot of talk about how people from certain communities should be put to the front and should be decision-makers in, in relation to the provision that touches their community. Very often, uh, people in power do not see representatives of said communities in the group that makes those decisions. And sometimes it's difficult. It's such a strange thing to say, it's difficult to find, find us [Mon laughs] and engage us. But if we are not authentic in our workplaces, in our wider communities, then it will be difficult for people to find us and to ask those questions and to make decisions that will not harm us. Um, so having that voice is really, really important.
Chris Angel Murphy 16:54
Yeah. And also not feeling like there is this burden that you have to, like, be tokenized, or that you have to be the leader - that it's also just enough to be out, to show up, to exist. It's okay to say no to those kinds of opportunities. If - I mean, I know certainly I've been in pools of, again, workplace scenarios where I was very upfront about who I was throughout the interview process. And then they had to take a hard look at their policies at their onboarding procedures and say, Are we ready for this person to come on, and like, be in those conversations, and I was happy to do it. But like, how nice it would be to also just show up at a job and not have to be tokenized, or be the leader, and just do the job I was hired for. Which is funny now because now I'm an entrepreneur because I think I just got tired. [Chris Angel and Mon laugh] But, but -
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 17:49
It's really interesting - it's really interesting how a lot of people who are from the LGBTQI+ community, um, often specifically look for organizations that are channeling inclusion and diversity within the LGBTQI community. Which is kind of sad, because it puts all the pressure to, um, you know, drive the progress on - on ourselves. But also, there is a lot of logic in it, because organizations that, um, focus on progressing, you know, representation and equality for LGBTQI people are safe spaces, you know? They have thought about the provisions that we need, as people in this community, to be our true and authentic selves at work. And if we spend so much time at work, it is so important to not have to hide. And so it makes perfect sense. But all those - well, not all those companies, but a lot of those of those organizations are charities, which means that the salaries they pay also are not, you know, they're not banking salaries. [Mon laughs]
Chris Angel Murphy 18:37
Nope. [Chris Angel laughs]
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 18:58
So, you know, again, you're we're restricting ourselves, but we're restricting ourselves for safety, for the luxury of not having to hide any part of us ourselves. For the luxury of just turning up and, and being without the burden, without the trauma, without having to relive prejudice and, and the propaganda that has been for years and years and years spread against us.
Chris Angel Murphy 19:31
Absolutely. And - whew, we took a journey, so.
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 19:36
We didn't talk about my identity at all. [Mon laughs]
Chris Angel Murphy 19:39
Yeah, no, especially since that was very important to you. We had started to, we had started to and then we took this, like, um, side quest, I guess you would call it in gaming. I don't know, I'm not really a gamer. But, um, because there were so many identities that were important to share out. I guess starting with ones specific to either our community or the broader ones, um, whichever, whichever place you want to start and help us understand these identities and what they mean for you.
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 20:14
Sure. I think I'll start with "queer," and I'll start with queer because I know that still in the community it's not a word that is accepted by everyone. I really strongly identify with this word, partly because it is gender neutral, in my view, and so it fits very well with where I am in terms of both my gender and my sexuality. And I'm very much drawn to the power that comes from reclaiming words, and reclaiming slurs. And I think a lot of people in the community experience verbal abuse. And I know from personal experiences that often when we are called names, it feels very alienating. And we often can feel like we're at fault. And so reclaiming those words can be incredibly liberating, in my view, because you know, traditionally - well, "traditionally," um - it meant odd and weird and was used as a slur.
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 21:16
I really, really like it as an alternative to the LGBTQI+ initialism because it kind of puts in a big bag everyone who is not cishet-normative. And even these days, "queer" is a very activist word, I think is a very charged word. To me, it means people who are not just white, male, gay, it means people who are of color, people who are disabled, people who are neurodiverse, people who are homeless, people who do sex work. Queer is that word that encompasses all those odd and weird and beautiful, who do not fit in the "system," both with "sys", and "cis" at the beginning.
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 22:04
These days - I don't know what the situation is in the US so much, but in UK, we've had lots of queer liberation movements, and marches, running alongside the gay pride celebrations. And they do have a much more activist feel as opposed to the commercial and local government approved and pretty and fun gay prides. There is still the need to reclaim and to fight and to include everyone in the rights that we have achieved in the US and the UK. You know, I come from Poland. Poland is such a interesting country. [Mon laughs] A lot of the municipalities in Poland have claimed to be LGBTQ-free zones. I know from personal experience, that if I go back to where my parents are, to my home country, I will not be able to be as out and as open and to live as freely as I do here in the UK. And I do not belong there because of that. And so the "queer" label really fits because it brings in me that need to make sure that my siblings in Poland, and in Russia, and anywhere else in the world where LGBTQ rights have not gone as far as here, that we fight for them. They are not forgotten. And that they can also aspire and see that, you know, we can live and we can thrive. So that's very important for me, and I think that's what "queer" means to me. And that's why it fits so well.
Chris Angel Murphy 23:38
How about for nonbinary and trans?
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 23:41
Oh, gosh, where to start? Well, Polish language does not really have - well, Polish language is developing. But when I was a young person, there wasn't language I needed to describe myself. And for a long time, I was a tomboy because I was [Mon sighs] a person born in a female body who, who did not really identify as a girl, but there was no word to describe it, there was no option.
Chris Angel Murphy 24:09
Today, we usually say things like "assigned female at birth," shortened to "AFAB," or "assigned male at birth," "AMAB." We might also say that we were socialized as a particular gender. However, I will never tell a trans or transgender person which language to use for them. And I will say that broadly for the larger LGBTQ+ community. However, it is important that people from outside the community use the most appropriate language as much as possible. Context matters, and there's definitely more nuance here.
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 24:49
And for a long, long time, I had a problem with the trans label, partly because there's so much trauma attached to, to the label. There's so much prejudice against trans people in the wider society, um, particularly trans women, but trans community in general as well. And then also there's this assumption that is prevalent both in the wider society and within the trans community that you have to be trans a certain way, that there is this image of trans people that a lot of people will have in their head when they think trans. And a lot of people will not think that they're trans enough. Um, I volunteer with this amazing little charity that supports LGBTQI+ people with their mental health, it's called MindOut UK. And we have a lot of people come and say, "Well, I'm not what my birth certificate says I am. But I also don't think I'm trans because..."
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 25:48
And sometimes - obviously, no one can put a label on you, you have to feel comfortable with the label. But a lot of the time, people will not want to, um, associate with a trans label because they fit somewhere in between. And for me, trans is anything that isn't cisgender. That's where trans starts, and it goes all the way to the binary trans where someone feels like, you know, they're the exact opposite of their gender marker on - sex marker on, on, on their documents, or their documents at birth. And I think it's really important for nonbinary people to associate themselves with a trans label also for the reasons of bringing on change. Because we are not a small group, more and more people are more open to experimenting and exploring gender and playing with gender, and being freer in their gender expression and their gender identity. And the more people claim or associate themselves with a trans label, the greater power we have, the more of us there.
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 26:53
You know, we are a force to be reckoned with. And those little quarrels within our community that "you're not trans enough," or, you know, "you haven't gone through that procedure, this procedure, whatever else," it's not helping us as a community, but it's also not helping the society to reframe what trans is, you know, that you don't have to be a certain way, that trans is not the person who - well, of course, it is a person who has gone through medical transitioning and social and legal - but also it can be anyone else who has not gone through all or, or any of those stages. And the transition does not make a person trans. What makes a person trans is how they feel. I think this is something that we need to try to reframe in our wider consciousness. And the more nonbinary people reclaim and associate themselves with a trans label, the better for everyone.
Chris Angel Murphy 26:54
Yeah, and it's interesting, too, because there can be a lot of gatekeeping within our community. You know, I love that you're encouraging folks to adopt that identity if that resonates with them. And I know there's going to be plenty of nonbinary people who don't want to, and that's okay, and that's valid, because it's about choosing those labels, or those identities, or the terms or language or whatever, right? Whatever we want to call it that works for you.
Chris Angel Murphy 28:18
I'm actually curious if you've heard this one, um. There's some folks who have been gatekeeping around nipples. [Mon laughs] Like, you're not nonbinary if you keep your nipples if you have top surgery, for example. And when I heard that, I don't know, maybe a year ago or so I was like, "Excuse me? [Mon laughs] Like, we're gatekeeping nipples? Like, what?" Like, so, I know - I'll just also just, to make this a little bit bigger. Sometimes folks lose their nipples in surgery for whatever reason, because something can just happen. It rejects, whatever. So, something like that can happen and that's valid. There's also folks where maybe they're not even nonbinary, but just aesthetically, for whatever reason - maybe they didn't want to deal with any potential complications, or they just didn't care about that. Like, it was more important for them to have, you know, a flat chest or something like that. But to say, "No, like, to be nonbinary, especially if you're gonna have to have top surgery, you have to like, do without the nipples."
Chris Angel Murphy 29:27
Just what - why are we being so gatekeepy? It's just, I think it's just really unfortunate. It's one thing to have discourse like you're talking about, and have disagreements, but it's another to just say, like, "Nope, this is the marker. This is the benchmark. This is the milestone you have to do." Like, no, we don't. I'm happy with my nipples, thank you very much. [Mon laughs] I'm not getting rid of them because of some gatekeepers. So, yeah, I took you on a big journey there, and the folks listening, but has - have you heard of that?
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 29:58
I have not heard of nipple gate, gatekeeping. [Chris Angel laughs] But I am not surprised at all, um. [Mon laughs] I'm not surprised at all. I think, I think the important thing is that we are all individuals. And regardless of how we want to be trans, nonbinary, gay, queer, bisexual, pansexual, whatever - your identity is just, you know, if it feels right for yourself, then that's the most important thing. And we have too many standards put on us in terms of beauty, body size, you know, how we move through the world, what mannerisms we have. And, actually, we don't need any of this. I can, I can really see how this can create lots of anxiety and lots of mental health issues for people because we all want to be accepted. And we all have the same needs. But one of the most important need is that if you accept yourself and if it works for you, then there will always be someone who will find you beautiful and, and, and, you know, appreciate you for who you are.
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 31:08
My grandma used to say that, you know, "don't be afraid to be a monster, there is a witch waiting for you." [Chris Angel laughs] I think that's the best saying! It kept me through my teenage, you know, years when I was worried about very odd things in terms of my looks, and I think that's, that's something that we have to remember, you know. As long as it feels right for yourself, it doesn't matter, you know, you yourself know that you're trans or nonbinary or queer, and you never have to look the part. You look the part because this is who you are. I always say that - [Mon laughs] I had, I had a situation recently when, when someone on the street, um, called my clothes queer. No, sorry, they used "gay." And I think this is a common slur, common - common way of trying to offend queer people. And I turned around and said, "Well, yes, of course. I mean, my clothes will be gay, because I'm queer. Like, you know, this - they are gay, because I'm that way. And that's, that's fine." I think I like turning those little things into patting someone on the shoulder and saying "There, there. You've seen me? Well done." [Chris Angel and Mon laugh] We don't need any of, of that gatekeeping. It's, it's a bit sad, but not surprising.
Chris Angel Murphy 32:24
Yeah. Well, we'll tackle that at some point, right? So yeah, we've - so we've touched on "queer." We've touched on "nonbinary trans." We touched a bit on "immigrant" because you shared a little bit about your story and talking about, like, Poland and how the language is evolving, but also it's been pretty binary, things like that. So I guess, thinking about you being introverted. Something, you know, that's really cool about you is we do some similar work. And so, being an introvert, like, having that intersect with these other identities you carry could potentially make certain situations challenging for you in different ways. I'm wondering, how does this impact your work as someone who regularly speaks and facilitates conversations? How does that show up for you? Is there anything you have to work through?
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 33:18
Networking. I often - I often worry at big events, big events. And obviously, the recent pandemic and the fact that we, we've, well, a lot of us had the privilege of working from home and seeing people selectively, obviously reduced that. But big events are definitely an issue. And I often worry where do the silent queers go? Because it's, it's hard to see us.
Chris Angel Murphy 33:47
Yeah. Especially when I think of Pride. And if it's anything - because I've never been to Pride outside of the States, and I've mostly been to Pride in various parts of California, both northern and southern, but - Pride has become this very commercialized, big, loud event. And there's usually a lot of alcohol. There's like, different dance floors for different music genres. And so yeah, it's - when I think of something like accessibility, and Pride isn't always accessible to everybody, what I'm hearing is, like, being able to have a space where if you're overstimulated, or if you're overwhelmed, that you can have a moment to, like, recoup. Maybe there's like, I don't know, a tent of beanbag chairs spaced out, and if you need a little nap or something, you could just sit there curl up and seriously - you know. So I guess, what would that look like for you at a big event? Is it that there is a dedicated space that you know that you can go to that's quiet, or what would make that - what would make big events more accessible for you?
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 34:54
There is very rarely such provision, and I know that more and more companies or organizations and events are planned around people who, for example, are neurodiverse, and provides spaces for people to just remove themselves from the general, um, situation when they feel overstimulated. One thing that definitely has been my hack is having an anchor. And I never go, I never used to - well, I don't go now because of the situation still, but - I never used to go to events without a person who was my anchor. And I think something that is really important for me, and has always been very important in my life, is that often there is no dedicated space unless you want - you go to the toilet, which may not always be the place you want to go to. But a person can also be a safe space like this.
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 35:54
And sometimes, for me, personally, especially when I get very anxious around crowds, is either being able to hold someone's hand or just hug for a moment, or just knowing that they are next to me, and that if I need an exit, they will make the excuses for me, or they will cover for me, or they will drag me out. [Mon laughs]
Chris Angel Murphy 36:19
Yeah.
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 36:21
And I think that's the something that has been my, my hack. But I think, um, being an introvert is, is, is not all about not being able to socialize, obviously, we all know that introverts do that, and quite successfully, too. And many speakers, many, many famous speakers have been introverts, because it's so, so different. When you have to socialize and network with a group of people, to when you just avoid the crowd and hop on the stage, deliver your, your speech and then leave, you know, it's different.
Chris Angel Murphy 36:54
Right.
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 36:54
And we do those things quite successfully and quite happily most of the time. And so I think it's finding, finding your way in the world and your, your little solutions and hacks, um, but also having people around you, especially if you are in a situation where you're - when you are delivering a talk or being part of a panel discussion, if, if the organizers know that you have certain requirements, very often people are happy to facilitate a corner of, of the room where you can just sit or stand facing the wall for a moment, [Mon laughs] or have your headphones on, you know, on and listen to some calming music. There are ways to overcome stressful and overwhelming situations like that. And the more people know about it, the more you're likely to have that facilitated for you and, and, and be helped through the process.
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 37:50
And it's not to say that you're in any way incapable of, of being successful or of, um, moving through the world in a, in a friendly and welcoming and open manner. But it just means that you do not have to stress quite so much. Your anxiety will be leveled or lowered because you know that you have those points of access, where you can easily either retreat quickly or, or just find some, some space to recharge your batteries. And that's often what it is, you know, just recharging your battery, batteries, often doesn't take that long either.
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 38:30
In terms of being a person within the community, definitely a lot of our support networks revolve around loud places, around social places - as you say, alcohol and, and often other substances. This is definitely something that has been terribly affected by the pandemic, and a lot of our siblings have been removed from their support networks. The good thing that's coming out of the pandemic is there seems to be more focus, at least here in the UK, at creating spaces that do not revolve around the pub and club cultures quite so much. So people will meet for walks or, you know, do something that is not related to, to partying necessarily. And it in itself can be more inclusive, because there are more options. And people have different abilities, people who are on the neurodiverse spectrum, you know, can relate to, to, to more of those activities and find that support network and in that chosen family as well, especially in places that are not like London or New York where, you know, smaller, smaller, smaller locations where there may not be necessarily a wide network available.
Chris Angel Murphy 39:46
I love what you said about having someone as an anchor because I've totally done that without naming it. Right? Like, I've - there's some social event or something that I wanted to go to and I'm like, "Oh, you have to be there. Please. I can't go without you." But what I'm really saying is "I need you to be my anchor," and I think now that you've just given me that beautiful language to use, I think it also helps me set up the person too, right, to say, like, "This is, like, how I'm going to need you to show up for me, like, do you feel like that's something you can do?" Because I don't think I really made that clear to people before, [Chris Angel laughs] like, I need you there to calm my nerves, I need you there, because I'm gonna be stressed or, um - but I love that. So that, that's how that's, yeah, landing for me.
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 40:33
I love how a lot of our relationships in the LGBTQI community revolve around boundaries and around consent. And I think finding the language as you say, being able to name who that person is for you, even if it's just temporarily for one event, or long term, whatever. Having, having those words help us define our boundaries and, and ask for consent and define how we move through the world together. And this is something that is very, very interesting in the queer community. And I will repeat that in here, when I say queer, I mean, the whole beautiful spectrum of the LGBTQI+ community. Because we do a lot of the time have to specify our boundaries quite clearly, and we have to ask for a consent. And it's historical, like, you know, you had to kind of navigate that in a very, very subtle way, and being in the world in very subtle ways. So I think, in a way, it's something that we've inherited from all the queens and kings that came before us. And it's something that often defines our relationships that often is lacking elsewhere, I will risk that massive assumption.
Chris Angel Murphy 42:00
One of the topics that you talked about is redefining relationships. How do we queer-ify our relationships?
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 42:12
I'm so glad you asked this. I think, I think it does slightly follow up from what we said about consent and boundaries. But I think one of the beautiful things about queer relationships is that we do not have a blueprint. And we do have to - we enter relationships with a great unknown ahead of us. We don't know how the roles will pan out, and how we will define our roles within each relationship. And often for people who have had multiple partners, either simultaneously or, you know, in succession, each relationship will have a different layout in terms of how the people involved play together and how, what roles they they took. You know, who cooked, who cleaned, who took the children to the school, and who - I don't know, took the dog to the vet, I don't know. Basically, we do not have those predefined roles, you know, who earns money and who, who stays at home.
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 43:29
And often there are situations where we, we, we do fall into those, quote-unquote "heteronormative" relationship styles - which I hate, I hate that term, because anything a queer person does cannot be heteronormative, you know. We are not replicating a heteronormative lifestyle, we are building lifestyle that feels right for us. But I think that's the, the beauty of queer relationships, is that we are in constant conversations. When you enter a queer relationship very often you're like, "Well, so what - what are you into, and you know, what are you into, in general?" Like, seeing the big picture so that we can navigate together and build that, those roles around what works for each of us.
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 44:20
This is something that straight and cis relationships can definitely benefit from as well. This is something that has been incorporated into ethical non-monogamy, for example, the asking questions, the redefining your boundaries and setting boundaries, asking for consent. You know, opening up to the wider world and you know, having beautiful constellations of relationships, but also this has been brought into ethical monogamy. So something that really is - struck a conversation the other day with me and some of my colleagues was, what is ethical monogamy? And why do we not talk about ethical monogamy is because when we think about monogamy is as the thing that we have been taught is the pre-ascribed, the preferred form of relationship. But in reality, that monogamy is very narrow, and it does not allow for those conversations. Typically you just follow a certain route and that's that.
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 45:31
Ethical monogamy brings those questions, and those defining boundaries and that consent, and playing with your roles, and is a choice. So if you have explored various options for your relationship, and various setups that the relationship can take, and then you set for a closed, monogamous relationship, and you have those conversations, and you take into consideration what works for you, but also what works for your partner, that is ethical monogamy. It's, it's taking all the beauty from the queer relationships, from the ethical non-monogamy, back into what used to be a very oppressive system, really. [Mon laughs] If you think of it, if you think about the, the oppressive historical beginnings of monogamy, it's not a nice setup. But you can make it beautiful and really liberating by incorporating all those practices that makes it much more consensual and much more individual-oriented and supporting growth.
Chris Angel Murphy 46:38
I've never heard of someone talk about ethical monogamy. I've only heard about it as ethical non-monogamy. And I recently was talking to someone who identifies with ethical non-monogamy, but also shared about how, why do we have to double down on that? It's because we're fighting against those preconceived notions, right? It's like, "oh, well, you're just like sleeping with whoever" and like, "there's no conversations and STIs are rampant," right? This is what people can think if they don't know about it. So it's, like, interesting that the language has had to evolve to include "ethical" to just double down on "No, this is a beautiful thing. This is a consensual thing. There's conversations that happen. There's different, you know, setups in terms of families or dating situations and who's dating who if you're dating multiple people, whatever." There's just like a whole world out there. So I think the last thing I'll say on that part in particular is I think it'll just be interesting to see how it evolves over time. And if at some point, we're able to finally drop the "ethical" part not because I don't think that's a good word, not because I don't think that's important, because it's just that for me, it feels redundant.
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 47:57
Yeah, I can, I can understand what you're saying here. I think it's a bit worrying that we have to use that and stress that it's ethical. But also I think people do have an inner need to identify outside of the oppressive systems that they were brought up in. When you talk about non-monogamy with people who are traditionally monogamous, and sometimes when you talk about monogamy with people who are non-monogamous, there are very often the same arguments being used against each. So people will say that people who are monogamous lack the growth and the maturity to have proper conversations and to define what makes them happy in a relationship, but monogamous people will use the same argument against non-monogamous people, And they will say "You're not mature enough to be monogamous, to be - to be loyal to only one person."
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 48:54
And I think the setup you have in your relationship has nothing to do with your maturity necessarily. It's about what works for you and for your partner. It's a conversation between the people involved, and no one else can really judge or voice their opinions, because that doesn't matter. What matters is that whatever works for the couple or, or the triad or whatever, you know, whatever constellation you are in, that's the most important thing. And we all navigate - and yes, in any setup, you will have people who will not respect rules, or will not respect boundaries. But overall, these people are a minority, you know, and people want to be happy. So we have to make sure that they are allowed to be happy the way that that works for them, which is so - would be so nice if young people these days were taught about not only how to not get pregnant, but also how to make themselves and their partners have a fulfilled relationship.
Chris Angel Murphy 49:51
Yeah, I don't know. So yeah, it's not even necessarily having to drop like the "ethical" part necessarily. Because again, this is all just sort of, you know, me thinking out loud, but, you know, maybe it's something that also gets reclaimed, like "queer," or who knows. But I love that there's all these options. And I love that there's more language and there's just all these conversations happening. You know, like, it's curious that we don't talk about it as, like, "polyamory," like we're choosing to use, in this conversation, "monogamy" and "non-monogamy."
Chris Angel Murphy 50:24
Sometimes we can make mistakes when it comes to allyship. I'm wondering, what's something you wish you had done a better job of in the past? And what's something you do differently now?
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 50:41
One of the things that I'm probably most - I wouldn't say ashamed necessarily, although it's very close to that word - I'm definitely really, really not proud of forgetting there are many people living within the intersections of various identities. And I have in the past definitely shown allyship to a group of people in a way that automatically was not allyship towards a different group, or people who lived within intersections of various groups. I think that's something that has been a journey. I'm definitely much more thoughtful about that. And I think one of the things that's really important for me now in allyship is taking a step back.
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 51:34
When you're presented with an issue, with, with a support issue, for example, when someone asks you to provide them with, with support or to stand up for them, it's really important for me to take a step back and see how that act will not only affect them, but also how that act may affect other people who are also from within marginalized communities. Because it's not something that most of us do on purpose, but it's very easily done. And so making sure that you choose your language, and you act in a way that will not erase or not discriminate against other communities is really, really important. And that often takes, you know, doing all the learning and actually researching and asking questions, because you cannot be an ally to one group of people. If you want to be a good ally, you have to be thoughtful, and you have to be encompassing all the different identities. There's no standing up for one group and not standing up for another. That's not how inclusion works.
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 52:55
If you can find something online, just go online, you don't have to feed on people's trauma, you don't have to feed on things that are really private, um, for just satisfying your nosiness, really. But if this is something that would help you connect better, and support that person better, then this is, this is probably something that will - a lot of people will welcome.
Chris Angel Murphy 53:26
Knowing that coming out isn't just one time, like some people can think it is, what's one question that you wish people would stop asking you? And what do you wish people would ask instead?
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 53:44
Yeah, um, I think whenever I - whenever I say my name, or whenever I admit that I'm non-binary, a lot of the time people will ask "Oh, so is your name - was your name this?" And they try to guess what my name was. And I think that's something that really doesn't have to happen. I also something that is not necessarily a question but I've had done to me before, people who have known me before I changed my name and you know, will, will introduce me by saying, "Oh, this is Mon. I've known them since they were this age and they were going by that name, then." It's really, why? [Mon laughs] It's not necessary.
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 54:33
When I say that I'm a parent, a lot of people will - will ask how that happened. Um, they will ask all kinds of invasive questions about test tubes or donors and, or, or whatever. And again, I think, I think the important bit is that I've got a child. You know, I'm in a queer relationship. I'm nonbinary trans, but how all this happened is, is really not necessary to disclose and ask about.
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 55:04
I think what I would like people to ask more is, especially if they struggle with pronouns - and I know that for a lot of people, they/them is a problem because it is a plural don't you know. [Chris Angel laughs] I think I would like people to ask more about, "So could you just give me an example how to use your pronouns correctly, so I don't get them wrong?" And if they then follow and stick to whatever they were told or shown, and, you know, that is showing me that they have enough care and, and enough attention, and they really want to make me feel seen. And I think that's, that's really, really great, because a lot of people shy away from that particular question. And especially with some of the neopronouns, which may be more difficult for people to get used to, because they may not be used as often, they may have not come across certain neopronouns enough. And asking how you can make someone feel visible, make someone feel seen, make someone feel appreciated for who they are, those kinds of questions are definitely really, really beneficial and welcome. And I would like people to ask those more.
Chris Angel Murphy 56:18
What's one allyship tip you'd like for everyone listening to consider?
Mon Malanovich-Gallagher 56:24
A good ally is always there to stand up and show up when you need them to, but does not take up the space for the representatives of a marginalized community. Knowing that it is not your space to talk over or voice opinions about the experiences of a community that you're trying to support, it's really important because allyship is not a badge. You can't just say "I'm an ally, and therefore I have that right." You don't. Allyship is the things you do, but they have to really serve the community you're trying to work with, representatives of their community, and making sure that you do not overstep that, and you know, take that that space up. And that you put them to the front is really, really important.
Chris Angel Murphy 57:10
Well, we took some interesting turns in our conversation, and I am so grateful to Mon for making the time and working across timezones so that we could have this rich conversation. Here are three more self-reflection questions before you go.
4. Do you think you could be an anchor for someone if they needed that?
5. Have you ever thought about what you might need in a space or at an event to be more comfortable?
6. Do you know when to stand in front of, next to, or behind marginalized communities?
Chris Angel Murphy 57:52
Thanks again for listening, and please, if you get anything from this podcast and my guests who are on, I'd really appreciate you giving it a review on Spotify, Apple, or Goodpods. See you next time.
Visit AllyshipIsAVerb.com for any resources and a full transcript of the episode. And remember, sometimes allyship means not talking over marginalized communities.