Trystan Reese
Do you check in on your relationships? In this week’s episode, Trystan Reese (he/him) shares about his days of being a drag king and how he's been performing as a man since he was a kid. Learn about some of the practices he's adopted to check in with his colleagues so that they're in a continuous feedback loop, including addressing power dynamics and microaggressions. We also discuss a bit of what it's like to be trainers and consultants and the work that goes into it, including figuring out our boundaries and doing the work to know how to facilitate conversations. Trystan talks about how moved he was by Alok's talk on the podcast Man Enough and how well they were able to articulate thoughts that have been circling in his own mind.
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🎙️ Connect with Trystan to learn more about + support their work:
How We Do Family: From Adoption to Trans Pregnancy, What We Learned about Love and LGBTQ Parenthood - Trystan’s book!
(Disclaimer: Gender Sexuality Info, LLC may receive a small commission from you purchasing from this link, which helps to provide free educational services like this podcast)
💻 Sources and resources from this episode:
Alok: The Urgent Need for Compassion | The Man Enough Podcast
Dare to Lead: Brave Work. Tough Conversations. Whole Hearts. - one of Brené Brown’s books
(Disclaimer: Gender Sexuality Info, LLC may receive a small commission from you purchasing from this link, which helps to provide free educational services like this podcast)Activism After Stonewall - learn more about the Gay Liberation Front
Full Transcript
Chris Angel Murphy 0:17
Well, hello there. My name is Chris Angel and my pronouns are they/them. Welcome to Allyship is a Verb, the LGBTQ+ podcast that explores and humanizes practicing allyship for the LGBTQ+ community and beyond!
Trystan Reese 0:37
Hey, I'm Trystan Reese, uh, joining you from Portland, Oregon, and I use he/him pronouns.
Chris Angel Murphy 0:44
Before we get started, I wanted to take a moment to thank a new monthly supporter, Michael. Michael! Thank you so much for listening in. It means a lot and I'm so grateful. If you're interested in learning how to become a monthly supporter, you can check out the link in the episode notes and on the episode pages of the website. Any amount is appreciated and helps me cover the costs of producing the show, including paying my audio engineer, my transcriber, and also the software. So thank you, thank you, thank you, couldn't do this without you.
Chris Angel Murphy 1:18
Now, there is a chance you may know Trystan. Trystan was known as the pregnant man in 2017 by way of several news outlets. However, we knew each other long before then. He's the author of the book How We Do Family: From Adoption to Trans Pregnancy, What We Learned About Love and LGBTQ Parenthood. He writes a story of how he met his husband, Biff, and their unexpected start to a family. I was one of the people at the fateful brunch, who brought the date who, through a comedy of errors, brought a coconut we spent entirely too long trying to figure out how to open. [Chris Angel laughs]
Chris Angel Murphy 1:58
Um, but, although we've known each other for a long time, we've been the kind of friends who have kept tabs on each other, but don't connect often. That's why when I started my podcast in August of 2021, I knew I wanted to connect with Trystan and catch up more thoughtfully. Again, these are still episodes I'm releasing that were recorded late last year. This coming June of 2022, however, will mark a year since his book was released, which is super exciting. He also has a company, Collaborate Consulting, which offers speaking, training, workshops, and more. So again, another one of those guests where we do similar work, which is awesome.
Chris Angel Murphy 2:42
Unfortunately, Trystan's Instagram account has been targeted with transmisic bigotry for several years. I intentionally don't use transphobia here because it's not just a fear of trans people, it's purposeful harm toward the community and its members. Early January 2022, he turned his Instagram account private and deleted all of his Instagram posts except for a few noting why he was getting away from Instagram. He also did away with his other social media accounts. One of the dangers of people from marginalized communities being content creators or educators on platforms like Instagram, is that we can be quickly flooded by hateful comments and turn into harmful memes. If we're of a privileged group, such as being white, it can shield us to a degree and it is important to acknowledge that.
Chris Angel Murphy 3:39
There are harmful accounts that send folks in swarms to be hateful and hurtful. Instagram and other social media platforms aren't always doing enough to protect us or allow us to take care of ourselves. There are a few options to help curb it, especially on places like Instagram, though not everyone knows about the features and reporting can feel useless. Even when we get literal death threats. Instagram lets us know that they were too busy to review the content and to just block whoever we're having a problem with, or that they found nothing wrong with the death threat, AKA the content that we reported. You may also recall my episode with Dr. Kyl Myers when we spoke about the flood of negative comments they'd get on their Instagram page after the latest article or interview got attention. Several of my previous guests like Zoa and Josée deal with similar issues, and it's not okay.
Chris Angel Murphy 4:43
Trans men like Trystan who are openly sharing about their pregnancies have a lot at stake. The representation is beautiful and meaningful. He's helped to educate so many people about his experiences and how they can get pregnant too, if that's something that's important to them. People have been stealing the images and creating cruel posts from some of the best moments of his life.
Chris Angel Murphy 5:08
This is all to say that it's a privilege to get to know us through social media because of the harm it can cause for us. Tech has a responsibility to better allow us to take care of ourselves, and this should not be a hazard of the job that's normalized. For anyone else who has ever been on the receiving end of any of this, I'm sorry, and you matter. Please reach out to similar accounts, and let's hold space for each other if we need it. This isn't to say that social media always pans out this way. However, it's very present on my mind at this time, for all of the ways that can help us to be more connected, inspire us, educate us, and how powerful it can be to see various marginalized groups being represented, this can be the cost of that. And it can be a steep price to pay, especially on our mental health, safety, and overall well being. And you may also notice that all of us in this space choose to deal with it differently, which is also okay. We have to do what we feel honors us best.
Chris Angel Murphy 6:14
Thank you for hanging in and listening to what I felt moved to share. That said, here are three reflection questions for you to mull over as you listen. Stay after the interview to hear three more.
1. What does being a man mean to me, whether or not I am one?
2. Do I know any men who have been or are pregnant?
3. Have I ever reported something on social media? What happened?
And now, here's our conversation.
Chris Angel Murphy 6:51
You are queer, transgender, and a parent. Can you share what that means to you?
Trystan Reese 6:57
Sure. I mean, I think about labels and identities as really powerful sources for good. I know there's a lot of movements that are like, live without labels, or whatever. And I, like, I really like my labels, they've been really powerful entry points into community for me. Um, and you know, for - sometimes I feel more queer, sometimes I feel more gay, I think the older I get, the more gay and the less queer I feel. And you know, for the allies who are listening to this podcast, this is a distinction that really matters within the community, but maybe seems less important or less eh- less easy to distinguish from outside the community. Um, but I think about queer as really being a way of identifying that you're outside of the norms, whether those are the norms around how you do relationships, and who you do relationships with, whether it's the norms around your gender identity or expression, who you know yourself to be, how that lines up with your body, how you show that to the world, um. And more and more, I'm feeling like, I don't know, like, am I still cool enough to be queer? I feel like I don't - I'm not - as the mainstream has come more clearly into alignment with who I already was, I'm like, do I have to keep pushing the envelope? Or can I just stay who I am?
Trystan Reese 8:17
So I also really love identifying as a gay transgender man, um. My experience with gay men, um, has largely been really incredible. Some of the best allies I've ever had have been non-trans or cisgender gay men. That's not true for a lot of the trans community, but for me it is, and so I like aligning myself with them. I feel like, you know, gay m- gay men, in many ways, brought us Act Up. Gay men, in many ways, brought us the Gay Liberation Front - not to discount the incredible role of allies and lesbians and bisexuals and other queer people and trans people, of course, and, the real beating heart of some of that organizing was gay men. And I want to honor them by, you know, aligning myself with them in terms of my identity.
Trystan Reese 9:04
What does it mean for me to be transgender? I was assigned female at birth, I live my life as a man. I'm trans. It's a really important part of how I've - how I view the world, how I - how I navigate the world. Um, and being a parent has changed everything for me. It's really realigned why I do the work that I do. Before I did it mostly out of anger, um, anger at the system's not working for so many people, um, anger at the ways in which the system failed me and the ways in which I saw this system is failing my cisgender heterosexual friends. Um, and now I really do my work from a place of love for my children. I love them so much that I want to do everything I can to make the world ready for them when they really emerge into it fully as teenagers, as, uh, young adults and as adult-adults.
Chris Angel Murphy 9:53
You just released a book, and I think we're gonna probably talk about it for at least a little bit here. And it's called How We Do Family. I have a copy of it in my hand right now. Um, and I'm encouraging folks who are listening to grab a copy of it as well, especially from LGBTQ+ owned bookstores. But, pretty early on you talk about coming out as a transgender man, and also performing as a drag king. I'm so curious about this, because number one, I feel like there are so many drag queens, but we don't see enough of the kings, especially on not even just RuPaul's Drag Race, or, you know, the Drag Kids documentary, or - you know, I mean, there's, there's a lot more out there now. But I just feel like we don't see nearly as much about drag kings, or maybe even other performers as well for drag outside of the queens. But I'm wondering, what did it mean for you to be a transgender man, and also tap into the energy of being a drag king or a drag performer? I think I'm just gonna leave it open there.
Trystan Reese 11:04
Yeah, well, I mean, I think the only adjustment I would make to the question is about the order of things. So I was performing - I mean, I've been performing as a man since I was a kid, basically. You know, I was really involved in theater when I was a child, it was my only outlet for love, support, creativity in my very conservative small town that I was raised in next to an Air Force base. And I think the - I mean, from as early as I can remember, there just weren't enough boys to play all the boy roles. And so it's like, I've played Oliver, I've played the Artful Dodger, I've been in the quote-unquote "men's chorus" for, like, every musical ever, including Annie, and Beauty and the Beast, and like, all the big sort of mainstream musicals, I was in them. And so I have really in the earliest recesses of my mind memories of being able to inhabit masculinity and femininity from an early age.
Trystan Reese 12:02
And so it was really an easy fit, as I slowly discovered, yes, I'm a part of the queer community, but I couldn't be a lesbian, because I wasn't interested in women. And I tried to date women, but I just, it wasn't there. It was like going on a date with my sister. It's like, cool, totally want to hang out with you, but like, please, I don't want to like - please don't make me kiss you, you know? Like that just - that spark wasn't there. Um. And so when I moved to Portland, and I found out that there was an all-ages queer club, I was like, "Oh, cool! Even though I don't exactly know how I fit here," I knew that that was home for me, that was a place I wanted to go.
Trystan Reese 12:42
And as I watched different drag performers - and maybe this speaks a little bit to like, why don't we see more drag kings and drag queens? There's a lot of reasons. But for me, I think, you know, the drag king art form just is not nearly as evolved as it is for drag queens. And there are lots of reasons for it. And I think mainly that, you know, men has been - men have been performing as women because of sexism since Shakespearean times. Um, and he played with that a little bit in his plays as well, um. But when I saw drag kings perform, it was just, like, a woman with short hair, who like, drew on a mustache and then lip synced and like, maybe they hadn't even really listened to the song ahead of time. But when I saw drag queens perform, I mean, we're talking about characters and character developments and accents and backup singers and choreography. It was a much more evolved art form.
Trystan Reese 13:36
And so me with my background in theater and performance - I went to performing art school, um. For me, I was like, oh, cool, I can bring a sort of more elevated approach to this drag king thing. And I did have choreography, and I did have backup dancers, and we did really take on characters and personas, and I love that part of it. But really, after my last - my first performance, it went better than I thought it was going to go. And then the host - Abby, I still remember. She asked me like, "Oh, what's your drag name?" And I didn't have one. Um, and at the time, I did not identify as trans. I didn't know that I was trans. I just hadn't had as much exposure to trans men in that community to know it was even an option, um. And so I just told her that my drag king name was Trystan because my friend who had come up to see my performance was named Trystan, it seemed like a good name, I don't know. And I picked a different spelling than his just so we could kind of distinguish. Um, and that was my drag persona.
Trystan Reese 14:33
And then slowly as kind of happens, people started to call me Trystan more than my old name, and I liked that so much. And then they started calling me "he" because of my drag persona. And that was really when things clicked, and I was like, "Oh, this isn't drag. This is who I want to be." And that performance of like, putting on a mustache and looking at myself in the mirror was like, oh, like, this isn't a show. This isn't a joke. This isn't a character or a caricature, this is who I am, this is who I want to be. And so it was really through doing drag that I was able to find that alignment. So it was less about me as a transgender man doing drag as a drag king, more about me doing drag as a drag king to access my identity as a transgender man. And then slowly over time, it was sort of like the two merged, I stopped performing cause I didn't need to anymore, I got to be me 24/7. Um, and I haven't done drag in any form for like, 10 years, really.
Chris Angel Murphy 15:36
That's awesome. I, I love that. And what was your inspiration for the - did you have like, one particular character? Or, yeah, what was your inspiration for the persona that you took on?
Trystan Reese 15:48
So many, so many. You know, like, one of the earliest numbers that I did with my drag king troupe was one of the numbers from Newsies. And so like, that was such a - Newsies was such a instrumental film for me in my childhood and, and looking at, um, fellowship amongst young men and boys, and looking at friendship and camaraderie and power building, um, and being able to really accept and embrace the differences, while also not shying away from the similarities. You know, like, that was really powerful for me. Plus, of course, they also sing and dance. [Chris Angel laughs] So I love that.
Trystan Reese 16:25
Um, also, Christian Bale was like, one of my earliest crushes when I was a kid. And so for sure, Newsies. Plus, I was really into, like, union organizing and labor rights and, um, and youth - youth liberation as a young person. Um, so yes, Newsies was a big one. And then as I got into be like, 17, 18, 19, um, some of the cool gender stuff that Alan Cumming was doing, and then has continued to do well into my adulthood and his older adulthood, um. Yeah, and so I feel like I had a lot of really cool models for how masculinity, like, manhood, boyhood, camaraderie, fellowship, fraternity, um, could look that I've continued, I think, to - I think I've continued to kind of live into those very, very, very early models into my adulthood.
Chris Angel Murphy 17:17
I love that. Shortly before your book came out, on Instagram you wrote a post about how you are going to fuck up. Right? You know that a book - and I'm paraphrasing in my own words here, that a book was permanent, and not something you can edit as easily as, like, a post on Instagram or blog posts or things like that. That, you know, perhaps you remembered things wrong, you know, but you did the best you could, you interviewed friends and family, you looked through, like, the court doc- I mean, all of this, and I don't want to give anything away in the book. But, you know, it basically, to me, I read it as this giant disclaimer and, and just trying to own your humanity. I'm just kind of wondering. So there's a lot more talk about, like, being sensitive, or people getting DEI, DEIJ training, things like that, you know, being more PC - and all this can get really heated, because folks can be afraid of being, like, called out, canceled, things like that. Is that part of where that came from? Or I guess, could you talk more about what inspired that particular post?
Trystan Reese 18:23
Yeah. I mean, a lot of things inspired it. Mostly, you know, I'm - because I do this work as my job-job, you know, I think, you know, writing someone off or canceling them or a public boycott or public call out, it's a really vital tactic in our tool of tactics. Um, and it's - it should be strategically applied when appropriate, right? And one of, and - but not everyone knows that, you know, not everyone knows that, like you cancel someone when they're in a position of power in the movement, in their field, or positionally above you, right, so you can't have that, like, peer-to-peer conversation. Canceling or a call out is appropriate when you don't have a personal relationship with with the individual or organization that you're calling out or calling in or canceling or whatever. And calling out is, um - it's a vital tactic when there are not other avenues for redress.
Trystan Reese 19:20
So if you didn't get paid by a former employer, there are avenues for redress for that, it's not appropriate to call them out or to cancel them publicly. It's just - it's just not effective, I won't say appropriate, I can't say what anybody does, that's up to them. It's not effective for getting your money back. Like, there are other avenues for redress. And what I wanted to do with that post, um, is to kind of hit on all three of those things. Basically, what I wanted is if anyone didn't like, or if I missed the mark on - in, at any point in my book for them to know, bro, just talk to me. Like, just, just come to me. Like, I'm not in a position of relative power over anyone else. I'm still, like, a tattooed up, queer, transsexual with no college degree.
Chris Angel Murphy 20:05
Buckle up, because this is a bit of a longer explainer related to the term "transsexual." Something I've been discussing with friends as of late is how in the queer community broadly, time isn't linear. We can figure out who we are at any point and continue to shift and adopt different language and identities. For example, terms like trans elder. Sometimes it can be because a person is trans and older. I think of awesome pioneers like Kate Bornstein, who once had a mini convo with me via Twitter, and I fangirled for a very long time. [Chris Angel laughs] But trans elder can also mean someone has been identifying as trans for a period of time, let's say five years or more. It's relative, so there isn't a hard rule about it.
Chris Angel Murphy 20:49
In fact, I was recently called a trans elder by someone else, and it tugged at my heartstrings. I just hadn't considered it before, and now I proudly claim it. My experience of being a trans elder is complicated and nuanced. For me, it's a reminder that I genuinely didn't think I'd be alive this long. How did I live to be 34? No clue. Most days, I feel like I'm living on borrowed time. It can be hard and overwhelming to imagine a life for myself in the long term because of this. However, someone in their early 20s, like Jazz Jennings from the I Am Jazz show, can also be a trans elder. There's also the term "baby trans," which is for folks who are more newly claiming the identity, not necessarily related to an age.
Chris Angel Murphy 21:39
Again, it's important that the folks identify with this language. Even if someone may fit a supposed definition, it doesn't mean that they claim it for themself. I'm hoping that what I'm sharing here is helping us to move away from this idea that there's a "trans narrative," and that there can only be one experience, because it just isn't true. That said, some trans elders, especially those currently 30 and up, have decided to embrace the term "transsexual." For some folks, like myself, I don't like it because it's too medical, and it doesn't resonate with my experience and how I feel about any previous and potential future medical transition. It would feel like I'm saying, "My medical transition is all done, and I'm good to go now," which isn't true and feels very limiting.
Chris Angel Murphy 22:28
My current understanding is that folks are reclaiming transsexual to acknowledge the dysphoria they felt in their bodies, and that the medical intervention was important to their experience. And that's great, and I honor that. So, Trystan using that here doesn't mean that he gives permission for other folks to use that term for him, but this is part of why he may have chosen to use the language in our conversation. Oof! Like I said, that was a long one. But, back to the convo.
Trystan Reese 22:56
Like, trying to hack together a life over here. Like, I'm not some fancy executive director. Like, I'm not the president of anything. Like, I'm not in charge of shit, [Chris Angel laughs] other than like, my family and my, like, little tiny business. Um, and, you know, similarly, um, here I am, and I'm open, and I want to hear and I want to learn and I want to be humble. And, you know, of course, I'm going to have my own tenderness, and I'll deal with that on my own, like, with my therapist, and my crew, you know? You don't have to worry about taking care of me.
Chris Angel Murphy 23:26
Right.
Trystan Reese 23:26
So I really wanted folks to see that there are so many opportunities that I want to learn from, um, and to put myself out there as being willing to learn. So that hopefully, yes, if someone reads an explanation of something that I do in my book, if they're like, "Ugh, that's not how I would say it" - cool, let's talk! You know, like, send me a DM, like, send me an email, I would love to get on Zoom with you and to really hear more, um, and to be open to learning and also be open to teaching, right? There are times when I may know more than you do. And you're bringing your perspective, assuming that it's the universal perspective, and it's not. And I can say, "Oh, yeah, so I've thought about this a lot, and here's who I talked to, and here's how I came to this conclusion." Or, "Oh, my gosh, I never thought about it that way. Thank you so much for sharing. Is it okay if when I release the paperback version, and I get a chance to update it, can I update it using your language and give you credit?"
Trystan Reese 24:20
You know, like, I wanted people to know there's a direct line of communication here. You don't need to, like, @ me on Twitter, or whatever. Um, and in a way, like, it's an action that I take out of fear. Um, I'm old enough to have been not given the benefit of the doubt, to have not had people check in with me and give me a chance to learn and grow and do better, and to really sort of lob some, like, Molotov cocktails at me and then run away and me just deal with the blow up and the fallout. I'm old enough to have experienced that and I still have that memory in my body. And so I'm trying to in a really healthy way engage with that fear to be like, "Okay, it's there. It doesn't seem like it's going away. So how can I proactively invite feedback from as many people that I care about as possible? Um, so that I can catch people when they're at like a 2 emotionally as opposed to a 10, when they're so mad at me that it's blown up into something else?"
Chris Angel Murphy 25:15
Of course. And I love what you said about just, like, being able to have a conversation about it. And I'm wondering, in your line of work, what are some ways that you help folks wanting to be better about practicing allyship? What are some, like, ways you help them to get anywhere near where you're at with everything you just shared? Like, what are some ways of getting to that point, if people wanted to take on that kind of journey?
Trystan Reese 25:41
Yeah, well, I don't - you know, this was going to be my allyship tip. But, just like, check in all the time. Not all the time, not too much. But I do this as a white person, you know, attempting to be the, like, most badass ally and accomplice to people of color. Like, if I'm partnering with a person of color on a project, every - at the end of every meeting, maybe every-other meeting, I will reserve some time as sacred at the very end, and I will put it on the agenda for us to check in about allyship and power dynamics. And I will just say, you know, I'm a white person, you're a black person or you're API, or whatever their identities are - you're Indigenous, uh, you're First Nations. And I'll say, naming that dynamic, how am I doing? Is there anything that you feel like I have done or said, any actions I've taken, any - even just a vibe you got at any point that you feel was rooted in white supremacy, white dominance, racism.
Trystan Reese 26:34
And I always say the same three things: I will always be grateful that you brought me feedback; I will always believe you, that your experience, your reality is real; and I will never be defensive. You know, you won't hear "well, yeah, but" from me. Like, I will just - I will just accept the gift of feedback that you're giving me. And by building that in - and what I tell allies to do is, you know, this can just be once a quarter, like, if you're supervising a trans person, and you're doing your normal quarterly review, and you're giving them feedback, to then say, you know, "You're trans, I'm an ally, how am I doing? Like, do I have your back in the ways that you need? Are there mistakes that I've made? I really want to learn, I'm going to be grateful, I'm not going to be defensive. [Trystan laughs] Um, and I'm going to believe you." And give people the space to tell you.
Trystan Reese 27:25
And like, the first nine times, they'll be like, "No, no, no, everything's fine." And so the second thing I advise people to do is to self-critique, to model self-critique. So if the person says, "No, no, everything's fine, you're doing great." Okay. Well, I'm so glad that everything's working well on your end. You know, for myself, I noticed that you were sharing an idea on our last call, and I cut you off. And I know there is an existing dynamic between white people and people of color. I know there's an existing dynamic between men and women, of people being interrupted. That's something that I noticed and tracked. It will not happen again. And I just model, this is how easy it will be for you to tell me that I've messed up, it's gonna be this easy. You can say you cut me off in the last meeting, and I don't like that. I'm gonna be like, "Oh, my gosh, you're totally right. I did. I am so sorry. That won't happen again." And that's it.
Trystan Reese 28:14
But so I'm just teaching them this is how it could go with me. It hasn't gone that way with every other person you've partnered with who hasn't done this work. [Trystan laughs] And really, what I've noticed is it's a muscle, that feedback muscle. Just get used to asking, just get used to hearing. And the more you can catch people again, if they're like, "Oh, yeah, on our last call, you did this," as opposed to "Yeah, six months ago, you did this thing. I've been sitting with it. I've told all my friends about it. I've journaled about it. My ther-" By then it's too big for you to manage.
Chris Angel Murphy 28:44
Mhm.
Trystan Reese 28:44
So that's, like, my little tool for how to get better at the feedback piece: catch people when they're out there at a 2. Notice, just like, ooh, send them a little Slack message or a Teams message. "When I cut you off in that last meeting, I shouldn't have done that. I am so sorry. It won't happen again." You know, just like, take responsibility lightly, effectively, humbly - ask. And that's how you can get less afraid of, like, being canceled or being wrong. Because when someone brings you a little thing, you can deal with that. It's the big things that are harder to deal with.
Chris Angel Murphy 29:15
Absolutely. And I think what I'm hearing from this, too, is about - it's nurturing the relationship in its entirety, right. And, and perhaps also not just looking, like - well, I know you gave some, like, really great examples. So, I wouldn't want to look at someone just like, "well, okay, so you're trans" and like, reduce someone to that, but like, "because you are and this is part of an identity that's very important to you, you know, here's something specifically I want to check in about that maybe I haven't been so great about." And it's weird, too, because there's this ego component. How do I remove my ego from this, of maybe shame spiraling because "Oh, gosh, I know better, why did I do that?" Or, I don't know. Do you have any tips there, or any - anything to say around that?
Trystan Reese 29:56
Yeah, I mean, this comes up a lot when, when I talk with organizations and collaboratives about some of the norms around white - white supremacy culture and white culture, this perfectionism. This idea that, like, there is a right and a wrong way to do things. And I really love what Brené Brown says, she says, you know, "My goal is to get it right, not be right." And if you can just think about that shift, you can just think like, oh, I don't need to be right here. I just want to get it right. And that's going to be different for every single person. So I would never say, "Oh, well, I don't like this feedback that you're giving me because my other friend who's nonbinary told me that it is okay for me to do XY-" Of course not, right? We're gonna get it right.
Trystan Reese 30:37
And it may be okay, depending on the relationship. I may be able to say, "I really appreciate you bringing me this feedback. It has been my understanding from the other nonbinary people in my life that best practice is X, Y, or Z. Are you in a place where you can explain to me a little bit about why you see it differently?" That's okay, if it's not coming from that defensive place. You know, for me, as a trans person, if someone says, "You know, you said this thing, and that runs counter to my understanding. I really, I really want to get this nuance here. Would you mind saying a little bit more?" That's so different from "how dare you say that to me because I ment well," right? That's very different. And so you know, when you can get that, that subtle shift.
Trystan Reese 31:17
I often also encourage people to think about it, to use their own - their own experiences of marginalization as really powerful empathy tools. So for the women who are listening, like, if you were to tell a male coworker, "you know, you mansplained to me yesterday. I'm the head of that project, and you explained that project in that meeting." How would you want him to respond? Would you want him to say, "No, I didn't. Oh, I do that to everyone." Course not. Right? You would want him to be like, "Oh, my gosh, I -I think you're right. I can't believe I did that. I am really sorry. What was that word again? Mansplaining? You don't have to tell me what it is, I'll - I'll look it up. I just want to make sure I get it right." Right, that's what you would want. And so in a way we can use our own experiences of marginalization as really powerful empathic tools for "Okay, how have people not done well for me? Why don't I, like, not do that for other people?"
Chris Angel Murphy 32:13
Those are such great examples. And I feel like Brené Brown is just so easy to quote
Trystan Reese 32:17
I have so - I mean, so many of hers, I just pull it up. [Trystan snaps his fingers] Usually - I just cleaned my office. [Chris Angel laughs] But usually I literally have her book, um, the daring leadership book, right next to me, and I have - it's dog eared, I've got all the quotes. But that, you know, I want to - our goal is to get it right, not be right. I use that all the time.
Chris Angel Murphy 32:36
We've talked a little bit about how you've been doing training work. I also do training work, and maybe we also have, like, different specialties and stuff, which is really fun to think about. Sometimes we can field really invasive questions, and especially since you live your life so publicly, with the book, with your Instagram account and everything. I'm wondering, what's a question you wish people would stop asking you in particular?
Trystan Reese 33:01
I don't have one. And it's because - and this is what I tell people, when they ask us questions that are at the line or over the line, is I say, you know, I have consented to being a content expert. I have consented to telling my story publicly. And I will just tell them, "I'm not going to answer that question and here's why." Or, you know, "I'm going to answer this question under one condition: that you will never ask this question of another trans person again."
Chris Angel Murphy 33:28
Mm.
Trystan Reese 33:28
So I decide, like, where I have my own line of what I'm willing to talk about, and what I'm not willing to talk about. And the reason that I answer that, answer the question that way is, is really twofold. One example I'll give, and I think you'll appreciate because I know you work in educational settings. There was a time when I did an all-school assembly at a high school in a very wealthy, white, conservative suburb of Portland. And the principal was awesome. He's like, "I went in and I did some work with some of their high- their health classes." And he's like, "I got such amazing feedback from the students and the teacher. I want you to do an all-school assembly." And I was like, oh my God, why would I ever say yes to that? And then I said yes to it.
Trystan Reese 34:04
Somehow, I ended a little bit early, and I said, you know, "I'd love now after just doing this, like, TED Talk style presentation - I can't even see you. I'd love to open it up for a little bit of Q&A." In retrospect, dear God, do not do that. But hey, we learn as we go. And I got a couple of really great questions. And then someone asked if I had had "the surgery." And the student body, as you can imagine, just erupted, right? A bunch of them were like, "You can't ask that question. Like, that's offensive." You know, and so what I wanted to show them, you know - I have, I've learned facilitation from several different schools of facilitation. And one of the schools that I have studied under, they really teach that settled bodies make settled bodies. So you don't have to be calm, right, but you want to be settled. And so what I tried to model for the students was that I'm settled. I'm not rattled. I am unflappable. You can't hurt me. You can't offend me, you can't upset me, right.
Trystan Reese 35:00
And so I was able to just say, like, "I got it, like, I got it, I got the microphone, I got this spotlight here, I'm good. Like, you don't have to take care of me." And that moment with that student, I did the second choice, you know, I said, you know, "You're asking a question that most trans people would be - would consider to be over the line inappropriate. And I am going to answer because I've consented to being here and I want you to learn. And I'm going to ask you to promise me that you'll never ask this question with another chance, do you promise me?" And I made him promise on the microphone, right? And then I talked a little bit about the surgical options, and some do, some don't, here's what I've done, here's why, here's why not, whatever, um.
Trystan Reese 35:35
And I really didn't want to shame him in that moment. And I thought, if I said, "I'm not going to answer that question," that that shame would have been in the room, and I don't want shame to ever be in the room. And after I did that with the school, the principal took me aside and said, you know, that student that asked that question is, is on the autism spectrum, is autistic. And he would not have known that that question is inappropriate, unless I had told him. And I thought from the lens of ableism, I really am glad I didn't try to shut him down. I'm glad I didn't say "I'm not going to answer that and how dare you ask it." How would he know? He doesn't have that ability, you know? He doesn't have that capacity until you tell him. Okay! And so I was really glad that I answered it that way. And it was a really powerful lesson for me. You don't know where that person is coming from, you don't know what their lens is.
Trystan Reese 36:20
And that's also why I tell people, don't hire amateurs. Just because someone is trans doesn't mean that they have done all of the work necessary to be settled in that moment, to apply all those different lenses to the conversation so that the student doesn't get shut down, that it doesn't make it worse than it was before, that you don't hear from a bunch of parents afterwards, et cetera. Like, you need someone who actually knows what they're doing. And it's hard to say that, but I often get called in to clean up when someone who, who really thinks that all that is necessary, all that is sufficient to do this work is that you are trans. Mm-mm. Mm-mm.
Trystan Reese 36:56
This is an advanced skill. It is an advanced skill. And it's very frustrating for people to not understand I've spent - oh, my God, 20 years this year, learning how to do this work well. It's a craft, you invest time in it! You - [Trystan laughs] So it looks - if you do well, it looks easy, but it is not easy. So yeah, that's my very, very, very long-winded answer to that, your question about what questions I wish people would stop asking. Maybe I wish people would stop asking me about breastfeeding my child. Don't talk about my boobs, don't talk about my body. That's a question that I'm like, eh, don't do that. But other than - other than that, unanswered and unasked questions do become assumptions, do become bias. And by creating an environment in which people cannot ask their well-meaning but awkward questions, I think we have contributed to an environment where we've allowed unanswered questions to fester and become bias, which then becomes discrimination and bigoted legislation.
Chris Angel Murphy 37:59
There's so much there. I feel like I have so many questions after you sharing that. So thank you. And, I mean, you and I have been doing this work for decades. And I think there's maybe sometimes more appropriate channels, like someone could do a fireside chat or a panel where there's other people who are more trained and things like that. So again, you have that facilitator in there, right? And, yeah, with the questions piece, and I'm hearing the one that you're saying that you wish people would stop asking you and that's - and I, I'm so appreciative that you shared that. And I guess, what's something you wish people would ask instead? So when they're, you know, wanting to ask things that are close to the line, past-line, like about "the surgery," and, and, you know, some of the questions you and I I'm sure get asked all the time, and our bingo cards are just, we don't even bother, right, because it just - every time. But what's, I guess, something you wish people would ask instead of, of wanting to ask a question like that?
Trystan Reese 38:49
You know, I watched this interview yesterday with Alok, who's a very famous, amazing storyteller, author, artist, nonbinary person of color, so on social media and off. And I watched an interview with them yesterday, in which they, like, completely said way more gorgeously than I could have ever formed, because it's always been just this nebulous, murky thing in my head. What they said was, "Instead of people asking, how can I help you? Like, how can I be an ally to trans people? You should be asking us, how do we get free?" And for me, that's the conversation I want to have.
Trystan Reese 39:36
Because that's why cis people are mad at us, is because we have found freedom from these really brutal, disgusting systems that are punishing, and hacking off whole parts of who all of us are. We have found a way to, like, unplug from the Matrix. And you should be asking us how we did it, and how you can do it too. No one has ever asked me that question, and it has never occurred to me that that's really what I'm doing. [Trystan laughs]
Chris Angel Murphy 40:08
Yeah.
Trystan Reese 40:08
And that's really why my trans pregnancy blew up in the way that it did, is I think men were like, "Oh my god, there are other ways to be a man." And some of them were like, "that's dope," but most of them were like, "Uh-uh! Are you kidding me?"
Chris Angel Murphy 40:22
Right.
Trystan Reese 40:23
"I was beat by my dad for crying when I was a kid, and I don't - I didn't have to be? I've held in and held back and censored and postured and over-performed my whole life, and you're telling me I didn't have to do that? Uh-uh." And similarly, some women are like, "This is great! Like, I also don't have to bear the sole burden of nurturing and caring and creating life. I don't - I don't have to do all of these things the way that I've been told. I didn't have to feel like my body was failing me, because I experience infertility, whatever." Some women, many women, see that and are like, "This is dope. I bet there's a lot I can learn from you." Other women are like, "Nope. I worked so hard jumping through all of these hoops. To be the right kind of woman, to do things the right way. You're telling me I didn't have to do that? Mm-mm." It hits a deep place of pain for people. And what I wish people were asking is how, how, how do I get free?
Chris Angel Murphy 41:28
So first off, for those of you listening, I will be linking that podcast episode on the website, so please check it out if you haven't seen it already. It is really powerful. And I think what's - that's inspired me to ask you next is, you're a super busy person, right? So even just outside of your relationship with Biff and your family overall. You've also, like I said, you've got your book, you've got your consulting business, Instagram account, sponsorships, I mean, the list goes on. Do you do this work in hopes that one day you won't have to do it anymore? Or do you feel as though it's, like, what you were meant to do, and just want to continue to dedicate the rest of your life to this? Or where are you at with that?
Trystan Reese 42:08
I try not to think in terms of long term because, like, I could have never - I mean, even like, I started working with a life coach two years ago. Um, she's moving on to her next venture, and so we just did our wrap up conversation. And I looked back, one of the very first exercises we did back when you could meet in person with people was we drew like concentric circles of like, what's, like, the safe things that I'm doing right now? What's like, outside of my, like, wildest dreams, and writing the book was in that danger zone, that, like, wildest dreams place. And, like, this year I wrote a fucking book. You know? And I would have never thought I could do that. So I try not to think about like, what do I want to do forever? Because I don't know, [Chris Angel laughs] I don't know what the world is gonna need. And I don't know where that's gonna line up with my passion and what I'm actually good at. I just try to think of seasons.
Trystan Reese 42:56
So like, you mentioned about sponsorships. Like, I'm not doing any more sponsorships on Instagram, I'm done. And that, that season has passed. Um, I hated it. It's not worth it. Done, done. Um. And, and so I don't, I don't know! I would like to - I'm still in a process of discernment for myself. Um, I think ideally, what I really love the most is the public speaking and the holding space. Like, I really love telling my story, and then holding space for what comes up afterwards, and facilitating a meaningful, deep conversation. Sometimes that's with, you know, corporations, sometimes with, with community groups, sometimes it's - you know, my assistant just yesterday was like, "Oh, you got an email inquiry from this college professor who wants to know, if you'll, like, talk to his college class, but it's unpaid." And I was like, "Yeah, I'd love to, that sounds great." I try to do a couple of those a month, you know, just holding space for people. That's what I really love.
Trystan Reese 43:53
Um, I happen to have other gifts that are outside of that. And so what I'm trying to do now is to scale up and build a really strong team around me where I can just plug in and be useful, and then check out when I'm not. So that's really the next big thing for me. But, um, if it was up to me, just knowing what I know now, you know, I would be traveling and being in community with people and telling stories and hearing stories for the rest of my life. How do I make that into an actual sustainable career? [Chris Angel laughs] TBD? That's why I have my consulting firm, because I believe in, uh, diversification, you know. Um, it can't be the Trystan show forever. I assume eventually people will get sick of hearing from me, and I want to have something to fall back on. Um, nd I also like doing the systems work, changing systems, which storytelling can only get you so far.
Chris Angel Murphy 44:38
I think you've done such a beautiful job of attracting and keeping people in your life who are supportive. And I know that work wasn't easy. It's required a lot on your part of being open to that kind of love, knowing that you're deserving of that kind of love and support. And I guess with all that in mind, can you share about a specific time you felt truly supported by someone, and what they did to show up for you?
Trystan Reese 45:04
Yeah, I mean, it is, it's a really powerful question. I did a - each year, I sort of pick a theme. And I had one year where the theme was acceptance. And I really looked at it from three lenses: acceptance of self, acceptance of others, including the love that they have to give you, and acceptance of life's inevitabilities. So I had different seasons in that year, where I really delved deep into reading and inviting conversation on each of those topics. And the acceptance of others, and acceptance of love from others, was the most painful and hard thing for me to really delve into. It has been a really hard, long journey that I'm still working on.
Trystan Reese 45:46
I will say one thing, because ostensibly we're talking about this conversation through the lens of my book. So let's say one, one way in which that showed up really powerfully was, um - and I'll just do a little bit of a trigger warning for pregnancy loss. Um, you know, I got pregnant very quickly after my journey to start trying, quickly and a little bit unexpectedly, and that pregnancy did not result in a live birth. And I got support from a nurse, just the person who answered the damn phone when I called. Not my therapist, not my certified nurse midwife, not my doula, just like. the random lady who answered the phone when I called to say, "I think I'm having a miscarriage." Um, and, you know, she said to me that I wouldn't be able to accept this advice immediately, but there would be a time when I would know I was ready and I could revisit it. And she said, "You know, a miscarriage is not a failure, it's a success. Your body recognized that this pregnancy was not viable, was not going to happen, and your body took care of you by ending the pregnancy. That's a success, it's so you would be healthy enough to carry the next pregnancy to term. And there will be a time when you can look back and access gratitude for your body doing this badass thing of taking care of you."
Trystan Reese 47:08
And in the moment, I was like, "pbbt, nope." It just felt like a messy, disgusting year.
Chris Angel Murphy 47:15
Mhm.
Trystan Reese 47:15
And there was a time she was right, when I was able to look back and be like, "Oh, my God, my body took care of me." And so for me, there is that next, next, next level allyship, where I did not feel from her in any sensory way, in any somatic way, right - trans people, our superpower is like, our ability to sense transphobia, that's our spidey sense. That wasn't in the room, like, at no point in any way did I feel that she believed it was my fault as a trans person that I had miscarried. Mm-mm-mm. She knew enough about trans people to just show up and give me really incredible, helpful advice that, through the lens of my trans identity, was doubly powerful. I don't feel a lot of gratitude for my body. Um, it - there's a lot of things my body cannot do, that other men's bodies can do. And for her to invite me into an even deeper relationship, built on gratitude and even hardship with my body, was really powerful. So I thought about that forever. I have no idea who she is, although I sent a copy of my book to that particular health care clinic in the hopes that it would make its way to her. [Trystan laughs]
Chris Angel Murphy 48:31
Wow.
Trystan Reese 48:32
But that was a moment where I felt like someone really, really had my back and showed up for me in a way that I really needed.
Chris Angel Murphy 48:38
Yeah, it makes me think of just, like, the kindness of strangers, and sometimes how we can really impact someone's life in such a seemingly simple and small way, but can have a lasting impact. Talking about allyship, what does it mean to you? And also, what's your thought around other terms, like ally, advocate...
Trystan Reese 49:01
Don't care, don't care. I have, like, a deep and powerful aversion to fighting over what are the right words to use. And I - it's not that I don't think language is important, because it is, I hear that from other people and I believe that it's important for them. But like, when it comes to trans allyship, please don't fight with other trans allies about whether it should be "advocate" or a - I don't care. Please, God, do not spend your time on that. Please spend your time making sure that trans people are having an incredible experience working with you. Please make sure that you're listening to trans people in your life, and you're consuming trans media, and asking really great questions of our other allies, and going to other allies for support when you have something that you're like, "Ooh, I think that this is an icky question, I don't want to ask it of-" Please just, like, do the work, and stop fighting over the word itself. I do not care.
Chris Angel Murphy 49:58
What does allyship mean to you? Is it basically just like everything that you just touched on, or is there anything else that you would add to that?
Trystan Reese 50:04
I define allyship as the ability to view the world through multiple lenses. And so that means you need to know enough about other lenses to be able to view the world that way. It also means that you're not tokenizing one person into telling you what to do, how to behave. It means you're not offloading the emotional labor of viewing the world through another lens to another person. It's like, often people come and they'll to me be like, "Oh, can you fix my website?" No. No, I mean, in some cases, yes, sure, [Chris Angel laughs] if there's other things happening, but usually I say no, but I can teach you what you need to know in order to fix your own website. And then you will not need me henceforth. [Trystan and Chris Angel both laugh] Because I can teach you how to view the world through that lens of inclusion. So that way, you don't need me to tell you, "How come everyone on your website is white?" You're just going to know, "Ooh, I'm going to see that right away."
Chris Angel Murphy 50:54
Mhm.
Trystan Reese 50:54
"I see it right away." Um, and then - then it becomes, like, second nature. And so that's just, that's how I view allyship. You, you can view the world through multiple lenses. What you do from there - I also don't want to do that thing where it's like, well, fighting over who gets to call themselves an ally. I don't care about that. I - call yourself an ally, great! Don't call yourself an ally, I don't care either. Because what I don't want is litmus tests. And what I don't want is someone applying their specific idea of what being an ally means to everyone. Each of us has our own sphere of genius. Each of us has our own, um, sphere of influence.
Trystan Reese 51:33
So, like, I did a lot of one-on-one coaching into racism coaching last summer with white people. That was my, like, my allyship offering to the movement, is I'll talk to other - I'll talk, if you're a white person, I'll talk to you for free. Bring me all your questions. I will talk - if you don't want to put it on people of color, great. People of color friends, send them to me. I did that work. And a lot of them were like, well, I'm an artist, and I have social anxiety. I can't be in the streets. And this yelling at people for not being in the streets? I have no interest in that. Why would you do it if you can't do it? If you're an artist, we need you. We need you to make beautiful, powerful art, be part of beauty, beauty and culture change! Like, do that! If you're a teacher, talk to your students and deepen your ability to do that. If you're a CEO, work from the leadership lens. Like, this whole BS thing about "everyone has to do it this way," it comes from a place of deep trauma. And I'm like, no, no, no, y'all need to heal yourselves and not spend all this time going around pointing fingers about who's doing it right and who's doing it wrong. Mm-mm, mm-mm. No, you heal yourself. And then like, let people do their work, is how I feel. [Trystan laughs]
Trystan Reese 52:45
There's so much even with this allyship tip about like, being willing to ask people how you're doing. So many allies are in this place now where they're so afraid to put emotional labor onto other people that then they're not doing the basics of checking in. I check in with my partner all the time, "How am I doing? Like, what am I doing this week that pissed you off? I don't want to piss you off. I want to fix that and not do it ever again. And I want - I want you to tell me, like, why - like, what's the impact that what I've been doing has had on you?" I want to really get present to that. Why wouldn't we do it with the people in our lives? You know, they get so tender and so polite. "I don't want to put the emotional labor-" It is okay to be like, "Hey, how am I doing? Do I - I want to have your back, is it working?" That's okay. Some people will be like, "No, I don't want to tell you, that's emotional labor." Okay, then you take their no. No problem. Thanks for letting me know, like, thanks for trusting me enough to tell me. But we need to be way - I think we need to be way less tender about some of this stuff, and just like, get real with eachother.
Chris Angel Murphy 53:41
Right. And that can be hard, especially if that's not something that we were taught or modeled appropriately. And so, there's just so much work there. And I guess I'm wondering, you know, part of allyship is, to your point, recognizing that we make mistakes, and that can be quite humbling. So I'm wondering if there's a specific time you wished you had done a better job of practicing allyship and what you would do differently now?
Trystan Reese 54:04
Yeah. The thing that's really present for me right now is, you know, at the level where I'm doing my deepest work, is really around being able to have hard conversations with people across lines of difference. And for me, I'm very much in that overcorrecting place, you know, where it's like, "Okay, well, if you have a different identity than I do, tell me that that's what I should do. I'm just going to listen and follow. And if something in our dynamic isn't working for me, I'm just gonna suck it up. And if I bring you - bring you feedback about something that's not working, and you can't receive it well, I'm just gonna suck that up too." And so for me, I'm at that deeper level of really being able to, to be honest and vulnerable and authentic with people across lines of difference and say, you know, "There's something I'm noticing in our dynamic and, and here's what I think I'm responsible for in that and I want to shift it, I'm committed to shifting it. And here's what I'm going to need to see from you moving forward if we're going to continue partnering." And that has been really, really hard for me. It's been really, really hard.
Trystan Reese 55:04
And so, you know, I think there are a couple of recent instances where I've let things fester too long. And in one particular instance, I finally brought it to this colleague of color with mine in the movement and, and he said, "Yo, don't sit on this." Like, that's exactly what he said, he's like, "Don't get resentful. You have a problem with something that's going on, I want you to bring it to me, like ASAP, even if it's messy in the way you bring it to me, because in order for this to work, I can't have you sitting there on something." And so for me, that's the thing. I'm like, mm, he was 100% right, and even in the moment, I was like, "Oh, no, I'm not resentful!" That was a lie. I was resentful. Right?
Trystan Reese 55:41
And so for me, that's, that's the thing that I'm continuing to work on. If something's not working, that I need to be in my integrity, and bring - and bring it up and bring it up soon, and not be afraid to say, "Hmm, this really isn't working. I've brought this up a few times, you're not able to receive it. Even if I'm a white person, and you're a person of color, they're-" Not every relationship has to work, not every partnership has to work. And I need to be in my integrity more and to be able to say, you know, "I don't think that our styles are compatible at this point. How can we de-tangle the partnership ethically and move forward separately?" So I'm still working on that. It's a work in progress, and it's - it's really hard work.
Chris Angel Murphy 56:21
I appreciate that. Trystan, thank you so much for recording this episode with me, and congrats on your book turning one in just a few months.
Chris Angel Murphy 56:32
Again, social media isn't inherently evil. There's a lot of great community out there. It's helped me figure out a lot about myself, and I've met some of my best friends. Please, if you see content that is harmful to the LGBTQ+ community, or that of other marginalized identities, report it. In times like these, there's strength in numbers and we could really use your support.
Chris Angel Murphy 56:58
Here are the last three questions to ponder before you go:
4. Which lenses do I view the world in?
5. Are there any resentments I’ve been carrying?
6. When’s the last time I checked in on my relationships?
And a quick note on that. I've had relationship check-ins, and it can feel weird and awkward at first. We've normalized that with romantic relationships and sometimes work relationships, so why not others?
Chris Angel Murphy 57:33
Visit AllyshipIsAVerb.com for any resources and a full transcript of the episode. And remember, sometimes allyship means checking in on our relationships.